There is so much to unpack in my interview with Jeanette. Did you know that our brains improve with age? Hmm . . . . And did you know that the population is growing older, with a 50/50 chance that someone born today will live until she is 100? Why should we be “put out to pasture” when we’re 65: there is so much that older people can add to the workplace and to society as a whole. But ageism is alive and well. By the time kids are three, they are already conditioned to see older people as wacky, limited, and infirm. Jeanette explains why and offers steps we can take to change the narrative. She writes on her website, “There are some really wonderful assets to getting older. And it’s about time everyone hears that story.” www.jeanetteleardi.com
There is so much to unpack in my interview with Jeanette. Did you know that our brains improve with age? Hmm . . . . And did you know that the population is growing older, with a 50/50 chance that someone born today will live until she is 100? Why should we be “put out to pasture” when we’re 65: there is so much that older people can add to the workplace and to society as a whole. But ageism is alive and well. By the time kids are three, they are already conditioned to see older people as wacky, limited, and infirm. Jeanette explains why and offers steps we can take to change the narrative. She writes on her website, “There are some really wonderful assets to getting older. And it’s about time everyone hears that story.” www.jeanetteleardi.com
Do you feel overlooked and invisible because you're an older woman? Have you had those age jump days when you look in the mirror and swear that you're looking at your mother? Do you feel the clock ticking and wonder whether you have enough time to check off all the items on your bucket list? Hello, I'm Jane Leder and I'm the host of Older Women and Friends, a podcast about and four older women that kick stereotypes to the curb. We older women are the keepers of stories, and guests on Older Women and Friends share their stories about love, loss, dreams, friendships. But let's not kid ourselves Aging can be a messy, complex affair. But older women have been around the block a few times and learned a thing or two, and this podcast celebrates their lessons. In many cultures, older women are revered as the keepers of stories. They're wise women whose advice is sought and shared, but not so much in our world. But we can change that and put older women back where they belong at the top of the food chain. So put in your earbuds and join me on Older Women and Friends. Hi, Usually when I interview guests I write a bio, but I looked at my guest Jeanette Liardi's website this morning and it was so well written that I figured what the heck?
Speaker 1:I'm just going to repeat it. And what she wrote is unfortunately, many of us view aging as a scary and or a repulsive process. That's understandable, considering that we're bombarded daily with cultural messages telling us that to grow old means to deteriorate and decline. And while it's true that our bodies and minds change with the passage of time, not all of these changes are negative ones. There are some really wonderful assets to getting older and it's about time that everybody hears that story. And telling that story is my job and my mission. Wow, I'm impressed, I'm motivated and I'm very excited to welcome you, Jeanette, to Older Women and Friends. Thank you, Jane.
Speaker 2:It's a pleasure to be with you.
Speaker 1:So can you please define social gerontologist?
Speaker 2:Gerontology is the study of aging, and we're all aging from birth, so it covers the entire life cycle, but the aging process itself. Now there are different types of gerontologists. You can be a clinical gerontologist and do research. You can be an environmental gerontologist and study the ways that the environment affects our aging processes. A social gerontologist is someone who is interested in the ways that society interprets aging, understands the aging process and also how society and its various factors influence the way we age. so all the different determinants of our health how much money we make, what race we are, what gender we are all of those affect how we age.
Speaker 2:How did you follow this path? Well, i'm 71, and when I was in my late 40s and 50s, i became the full-time caregiver to both my parents, both simultaneously and sequentially, and I did that for about 10 years. I had always been a writer and an editor and a teacher. I worked at newspapers and magazines. I wrote educational materials for children, but as a caregiver to both my parents, i saw how hard it was to get them the kind of care that they needed and that they wanted. I was actually looking to get them what's now known as person-centered care. I didn't know about this phrase until I went back to school to study gerontology. but I was so taken by how poorly older adults are treated. I just wanted to change people's minds about aging. I figured, let me study aging and what this is all about and how we can do that.
Speaker 1:Changing people's minds is something that you do very well. You have posted fabulous articles and commentaries on social media like LinkedIn, where I found you, and on your blogs, and it's hard to keep up because almost every day there's another article and it's like, wow, i haven't thought about that before or this is fabulous. I need to talk to her about this. So you've given me more information than I can possibly use in the time we have together, but let me give it a stab. you wrote a piece that was titled the ways that aging suits us, and you use, of course, a play on the word suits, and I wonder if you can talk about that piece and what you were getting at there.
Speaker 2:I I have been thinking about the ways that people in the aging services field like to inform The general public about what aging is like, what it feels like, what it is like to get older, and some companies have developed what's called age simulation suits, and these are suits that have all kinds of devices attached to them For example, your phones to block your hearing, fuzzy glasses to simulate people who have glaucoma or cataracts, neck braces and arm braces and need braces to stiffen our joints and to prevent us from moving in smooth ways, thick boots and thick gloves so that it's hard for us to feel the ground below us and to pick up a coin. And so these suits that have all of these contraptions attached to them are designed to give, especially young people, the feeling of what it's like to be an old person, but I find those suits to be counterproductive. I know that the idea behind them is a good one, to to inspire empathy, but instead they actually inspire fear and dread, because how many old people actually have simultaneously six, seven, eight chronic conditions that are so debilitating? Very few. I mean there are older adults, yes, who have six, seven, eight chronic conditions. By the way, there are also young people who have that as well, but that's not a general, realistic representation of being older. Most of us have maybe one or two chronic conditions we're dealing with. For example, i have to wear reading glasses now and my hearing isn't as great as it used to be, but I can still walk. I can do all kinds of other things.
Speaker 2:So I wanted to talk about the fact that, while we're trying to give people an understanding of age and we may actually be doing more farm than good in the messages that we deliver, and the thing about these aging suits is that they're all focused on the physical changes of the body, but there are many mental changes we go through as we get older that actually, in ways, improve our brains.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we lose some memory capacity and some speed of processing, but there are other ways in which our brains actually get better as we get older and those suits. There's no way you can devise a suit that can mimic older wisdom, the capacity for us to see problems from different perspectives, which is what our brains actually can do better as we get older. In fact, it starts around the age of 50. When this bridge of tissue called the corpus callosum that connects both hemispheres of our brain when it gets to be the biggest and most mature, is in our 50s, and that means that we can use both hemispheres of our brain simultaneously better. So when we problem solve, yes, we can see the black and white areas of the problem, the yes and no of life, but we then are also much better seeing the gray areas of light, the what ifs and the exceptions to the rule. And that's the kind of thing that an older brain can do much better than a younger brain, and I wish there was a suit that can give us that kind of perspective as well.
Speaker 1:And I find it so promising, so encouraging, so supportive to know that our aging brains are, in fact, superior. I had heard some information about this and I was trying to think of an analogy. And it didn't have to do so much with both hemispheres of the brain, but it had to do with the speed at which we can remember. And I thought about the old card catalogs that all of us used to do, used to use at our public library, and if we wanted to find a book, if we had a topic that we were researching, we thumbed through one by one or alphabetically, and it took us quite a while, but we ultimately got there. And I was just trying to think of that versus, i don't know, sitting in front of a computer or talking to our cell phones and getting this immediate Information. But to me there was something wonderful about thumbing through that card catalog, because not only could you find what you were looking for, but you could find all kinds of other things that you had no idea about. Does that make any sense to you?
Speaker 2:Well, yes, it does, but let me just correct you in a different way. When we're talking about speed of processing, younger brains are better than older brains. They do connect faster from point A to point B in certain ways, but there's a reason for that. We, actually our brains, are plastic. They can grow more connections. We can grow more neurons, nerve cells, until we die. Scientists actually in the 1990s those latest the 1990s Thought that we were born with a certain number of brain cells and they just died. At the old that we got this, we started to lose brain cells. Now we just start to lose brain cells, but we can also actually keep producing others as we get older. They discovered parts of the brain that are like little neuron factories, and so we can actually, if we keep our brains healthy. now we gotta have healthy brains and keep them challenged and active, but in scar speed of processing.
Speaker 2:This is how I like to explain it. Imagine two cells, neurons, neuron A and neuron B and you learn something new for the first time and that's like a signal is shot out from cell A to cell B and it's like creating a dirt path in the road If you use that piece of information again, if you have to recall it, then you turn that dirt path into a paved road. If you have to keep using that information or calling it up and applying it in different ways, you turn that paved road into a super highway. And the more you learn, the more experiences you have, the more super highways you build, so that when it comes time to figure out, to get a new piece of information, in younger brains there are fewer super highways, so the pathway can be more direct from A to B. But we have created so many more pathways as we get older that it's like constant forks in the road and so our brain decides well, do I go to the left or go to the right? So it's gonna take us a little longer for that signal to get there.
Speaker 2:But here's the advantage of the older brain, and this is the analogy I like to use, and that is imagine your brain is a library, or a hard disk if we wanna get high tech, okay, and it has a certain number of files in it. Maybe when you're in your 30s, let's say, the library in your head of all the knowledge you have is about 100,000 books. And you ask that 30-year-old brain go find me war and peace, or go find me Huckleberry Finn. Well, the brain of the 30-year-old will go right to the shelf here it is, here's war and peace.
Speaker 2:Now, if you have a healthy 70-year-old brain and you say to that same brain go find me Huckleberry Finn and war and peace, well, that library is no longer 100,000 volumes, it's 100 million volumes, and so that might be hiding in a shelf somewhere. Or maybe wait, did I put it in a box and put it in the basement? Oh wait, i think I saw it in the other room. That's why it's gonna take us longer to get there, because we have so many more books to get through. But the advantage of the older brain is to say well, and if you like Huckleberry Finn or war and peace, i could recommend 20 other books you're gonna like. So that's the advantage of the older brain.
Speaker 1:And that's why you are a gerontologist and I am a podcaster and a writer, because I like your library description much better than mine. Talking about another one of your posts and I think this was on LinkedIn and just by the way, listeners, please check out her LinkedIn page and keep up with her posts. They come almost every day, i seem to feel that way, and they are really interesting. And another one that you posted actually came from the Stanford business And it was titled We Have 30 Extra Years A New Way of Thinking About Aging. And I went yeah, that's just great news. I can't believe it. I have so many things and if I have 30 years, i'm good to go. Why is what the heck is going on? Why are we ostensibly going to enjoy many more years of living?
Speaker 2:Well, this is a trend that's been going on for years. We the average life expectancy at birth has changed, has expanded dramatically. In the 20th century it nearly doubled. Did you know that in the year 1900, in the United States, the average life expectancy of a person was 47? That's how old people were expected to live? Now, we've always had old people in society, but they were very much the exception and not the rule. So if you lived into your 40s you were considered a pretty much an old person in those days. Today the average life expectancy could be in our 80s. So we've almost doubled. And the reason why that's doubled is because of all the developments that have happened. The discovery of antibiotics, the development of vaccines, public hygiene, all kinds of family planning, birth control all kinds of influences have increased our lifespan.
Speaker 2:So when we think about older adults today, technically, a lot of times the general thought is well, 65, if you're 65, because that's when you qualify for Medicare and Social Security, those kinds of things. But actually, if the average life expectancy is in the 80s, well, now we've added about 20 years to that And now there is a greater possibility of living to 100. The average a child born in the United States has a 50-50 chance of living to be 100 years old Wow, and we need to have a future of centenarians, a future society of centenarian, more centenarians as we get older. And it's not just in the United States that the whole world is getting older. So it's what do we do with those years? Do we really hold on to the notion that, well, if you're 65, it's time for you to retire? go play golf for whatever few years you've got left? Well, you may have 35 years left. Are you going to be spending it playing golf or what? relaxing? A lot of older people can't afford to retire. We have to keep working And we want to keep working. We want to remain productive. Why should we be put out to pasture at a certain age? So what are we going to do with those 35 years, 30 or 35 years? Well, a lot has to do with how well society is going to support us in the last 35 years, and by supporting us, i don't just mean the benefit, like Social Security. I mean, do we have a society that's really open to keeping older people in the workplace if they want to be?
Speaker 2:A lot of businesses want us to hurry up and retire and make room for younger people, to give them jobs. That's known as the fallacy of the lump of labor That there's only so much labor to go around, and so we older adults are like clogging a pipeline for younger people. In reality, when you have old brains and young brains working together in the workplace, those workplaces are far more productive and they're more profitable. And what do they do when they become more profitable? They expand. And what do they do when they expand? They hire more people. So having older adults in the workplace can actually be a benefit. So these are the kinds of things we need. We need society to understand that older people we have so much human capital to share that's not being shared. A lot of times we're pushed by the wayside, we're ignored, we're invisible. So that's what I mean about how we can live those last 30 years or so. It can be to the benefit of all that older adults can be productive.
Speaker 1:And they can work together in the workplace, they can form friendships, they can socialize. And that gets us to the whole topic of intergenerational relationships. Why are they such a good thing, and are they beneficial to both the older person and the younger? Yes, they are.
Speaker 2:Think about how we have basically been living a kind of artificial existence since, maybe since the Industrial Revolution, when people started to leave their farms younger people and go into the cities and start to have jobs that had to do with working in factories. From that point on we started to become more and more segregated according to age. Normally they develop the public school system. Then kids were no longer working on the farms with their families. They're now in schools with other kids their own age. But before that time, throughout human history, we've always been intergenerational. People have lived in the same hut, Families have had generations living in the same hut for years. So we're actually going back to the way life has always been, And it's a good thing, because we have people of all ages, have things to give, Have gifts, have skills, have abilities, So we really should be intergenerational as much as possible.
Speaker 2:Did you know that ageism, that feeling of being afraid of getting older and seeing aging, is nothing but deterioration and decline? The concept of ageism can be implanted in a child as young as three years old. It can start that early. And in what ways? Because kids can pick up hidden signals from their parents If their parents talk about getting older, the commercials on TV that make fun of all people. We're clueless, we're cranky, we are tech-averse, we don't like to use computers. Wait, the best. Majority of older adults have smartphones, have laptops, are on social media.
Speaker 2:Then, incredibly what I think detrimental policy that some schools have that when they celebrate the 100th day of school, they have children come in dressed as 100-year-old people. Oh, no, Yeah. So they come in with wrinkles painted on their face, with gray wigs, using little walkers and canes and lumped over wearing baggy clothes. That's not the image that children should be having about older people. Sure, we use canes and wheelchairs, but not all of us And young people there are young people who use canes and wheelchairs too. That's not the image that children should be. That should be instilled in children's brains. That young or at any time actually So older adults have a lot to share with younger generations.
Speaker 2:We've lived a long life. Now when I speak with younger people, I can say to them well, you're a teenager, I used to be a teenager, but I was not a teenager at this time of history. I was a teenager in the 60s and 70s, So you can tell me what it's like to be a teenager now. What concerns you And I can learn from them as well. So intergenerational learning can go both ways. We can mentor each other and respect each other for the gifts that we all bring.
Speaker 1:And if I remember correctly, you did have a LinkedIn post about a program in a New York school or in the whole New York system, Kind of dealing with this. can you just refresh my memory and inform listeners?
Speaker 2:If I remember correctly, it wasn't my post, i didn't write the post, but it was an article that I saw. I think it's done through the New York City Department of Aging and they are starting to have curriculum in the school system that talks about ageism and the importance of intergenerational learning. So if you Google intergenerational programs whatever you'll find all kinds of resources. There's an organization called Cogenerate and I believe their website is Cogenerateorg and they have programs that have a lot to do with younger and older people working together to advocate and change society. There are all kinds of great programs out here for intergenerational activities, so I highly recommend people look that up.
Speaker 1:And I'm going to change direction just a bit, and that is because the podcast is, of course, older. Women and friends and you wrote once again. You've got to read her blogs and other postings. You said that you'd think there were only or we would think there are only two inevitable experiences for women throughout their adult lives Cat calls and catacombs. Can you please explain?
Speaker 2:I grew up in New York City in, as I said, the 1950s and 60s, but this happened I'm sure this happens to lots of women all over the place Walking down the street and getting whistled at or being followed by some man commenting on what we wear and basically sexualized, objectified. And that's the early experience of many women and that's the mild experience. There are obviously lots of very horrible experiences. So at a young age, women, we women, experience that kind of perception that what we're good for is pleasing the male eye or pleasing the male in whatever way. The male deems it should be pleased, he should be pleased. As we get older and we quote, lose our looks, because we're defined by our looks a lot then we get.
Speaker 2:We move into this area of what I call catacombing And I got that word based on the Catacombs of Ancient Rome, where you have this marginalized population of early Christians and they used to hide away underground in these caves below the city of Rome And that's where they buried their dead and that's where they went for refuge. So it's as if we're told we older women are told to just step aside, disappear. I've literally been walked into as I'm walking down the street, people bumping into me, younger people who just don't kind of don't see me And I'm not saying old young people do that, certainly not But there's that experience of just not being seen Or, in the workplace, older women in the workplace. We're all around a a some of us, the minority of us, are in the workplace And we're around a conference table with a bunch of younger employees.
Speaker 2:How many people actually ask us for our ideas? How reluctant are we to share our own ideas? because we have internalized this kind of role for ourselves. So we either seem to be way in view, and very much in view, or we're not in view at all, and that's catcalling and catacombing. And what I say is what we need to be are catalysts. We need to speak up for ourselves and to assert ourselves, even if people don't think they want to hear from us. We need to share what we've got, what we know, and eventually people will get the idea that, oh yeah, that's right, she knows her stuff. Or yeah, why can't she be on our team, working on our team with us? So that's what I mean about those roles. Let's reject those two extremes and let's just be who we are and seal the need and the desire and the right to be who we are and assert ourselves.
Speaker 1:Here, here. I wish that we had more time. We don't. But before we go, can you please tell listeners how they can find out more about you, where they can read a lot of your publications and blogs?
Speaker 2:I have a blog called Ageful Living and it's on my website, and my website is jenetlyardycom, and I'll spell that J-E-A-N-E-T-E-L-E-A-R-D-I, that's all one word dot com. If you go to my website, you'll see my Ageful Living blog post. You'll see original articles I've written for other magazines, other online venues, and I have a list of recommended resources. And I'm on LinkedIn. I'm also on Twitter. My handle is jenet lowercase, with a underscore learty, and you'll find me there.
Speaker 1:Well, i encourage everybody to look and to find you. Thank you so much for talking to me today. Thank you, jane, it was an honor. Thank you so much for joining me on this episode of older women and friends Speaking of friends, please tell yours about this podcast And if you'd like to contact me with comments or suggestions, you can email me at olderwomenandfriendspodcast at gmailcom. And while you're at it, please take a few minutes to write a review. It's really easy. Go to Apple Podcasts, type in older women and friends, scroll down the page and click on Reviews. Until next time.