Bridging the Pleasure Gap: A Deep Dive into Female Sexual Satisfaction with Dr. Laurie Mintz

Speaker 1: 0:06

Do you feel overlooked and invisible because you're an older woman? Have you had those age jump days when you look in the mirror and swear that you're looking at your mother? Do you feel the clock ticking and wonder whether you have enough time to check off all the items on your bucket list? Hello, I'm Jane Leder and I'm the host of Older Women and Friends, a podcast about and four older women that kick stereotypes to the curb. We older women are the keepers of stories, and guests on Older Women and Friends share their stories about love, loss, dreams, friendships. But let's not kid ourselves Aging can be a messy, complex affair. But older women have been around the block a few times and learned a thing or two, and this podcast celebrates their lessons. In many cultures, older women are revered as the keepers of stories. They're wise women whose advice is sought and shared, but not so much in our world. But we can change that and put older women back where they belong at the top of the food chain. So put in your earbuds and join me on Older Women and Friends.

Speaker 1: 1:31

Hello, dr Laurie Mince is an emeritus psychology professor and human sexuality expert. Her book Becoming Cliterate why Orgasm, equality, manners and how to Get it has garnered a lot of praise and, yes, some raised eyebrows. The LA Times wrote that the book is, quote a manifesto for today's orgasmic insurrection. End quote Maybe you didn't know we're in the middle of an insurrection, but I think you will after listening to what Dr Mince has to say. And boy, she has a lot to tell us. Hello, dr Mince, hello.

Speaker 2: 2:13

Oh, thank you for having me here. I'm very excited to chat with you today.

Speaker 1: 2:17

Me too. I have to say that listeners have been clamoring maybe not clamoring, but every once in a while they're saying how about sex and how about sexuality? And so okay, listeners, you've gotten your wish and here we go. We have so much to talk about, so in the short time that we do have, I've tried to pull together some information and questions. So let's see how they go. You begin your book with hello and I want you to orgasm. That's an interesting comment. I mean, haven't most women had an orgasm?

Speaker 2: 2:56

No, that is not accurate, especially when we break it down by age group. So this cuts across age groups, but difficulty orgasming with a partner is the number one concern that women between 18 and 35 bring to sex therapists, but it's not contained to that age group. There are many women in other age groups who say they don't know if they've had an orgasm, or they've never had an orgasm or they've been faking for many years. One woman told me she'd been faking for 30 years when she attended one of my talks. So no, not every woman has had an orgasm, although I am hoping to change that with the information both in my book and that we'll share on the podcast today.

Speaker 1: 3:49

Let's see what we can accomplish Now. You wrote about something that you call the pleasure gap, and can you tell us what that is? And my second question would be what's the problem with intercourse? But let's talk about the pleasure gap first.

Speaker 2: 4:06

All right. So the pleasure gap or the orgasm gap different people call it different things is the consistent finding in the research literature and published studies that when cisgender men, which is people who were assigned to sex of male at birth and still identify as men, get it on with cisgender women, same thing the men are having substantially more orgasm. The women are. And let me illustrate that with some striking statistics. In one study, 39% of women versus 91% said they always orgasm a sexual whoa. That's quite a gap. Now, that study didn't look at the context of the sex, but subsequent studies tell us that the orgasm gap is the biggest in hookup sex. It gets smaller in friends with benefits, subsequent hookups, smallest of all in relationships, but it never closes all together. In relationships there's men are still having more orgasm than women.

Speaker 1: 5:12

And to what do you attribute that inequality?

Speaker 2: 5:16

Okay.

Speaker 2: 5:16

So let's start with this. It's not in bodies, okay. And how do I know that? I know that because of two other gaps. One is when women are alone pleasuring themselves, 95% orgasm easily in within minutes. And when women have sexual encounters with other women, they have more orgasms than when they have sexual encounters with men.

Speaker 2: 5:42

There is one study it was very small study of bisexual women who hooked up with women and men and they said if their first time their hookup partner was a woman, they orgasmed 6-4% of the time, and if a man, 7% of the time. Yeah, and just recently I replicated that. No, it's not a scientific study. I put it on my Instagram story. I said if you're a woman who has sex with women and men, who are you more likely to orgasm with women? Men? The same, 75% said with women, 5% said with men and 20% said it's the same either way.

Speaker 2: 6:26

So what do all these things tell us? They tell us it's not about our bodies, it's not that our bodies are difficult or elusive. It's the way we do heterosexual sex. It is the way we proceed, and I can go on and explain more if you like. I do like. Okay.

Speaker 2: 6:47

So even the words we use. Let's think about this first. We use the word sex in intercourse as if they're one and the same. We use the word foreplay just to lead up to that main event of intercourse and sex proceeds like this Foreplay generally just to get her ready for intercourse.

Speaker 2: 7:07

Male orgasm, this idealized female orgasm. Like you see in the movies, everybody's orgasming from intercourse alone, sex over. But the issue is those movies are not realistic. Depending on how you word the question like do you orgasm from intercourse or what's your most reliable route to orgasm, you get different numbers. But two recent studies have found that only 15 to 18% of women orgasm from penetration alone, with no additional clitoral stimulation. And in research I conducted where I asked just the more neutral question, what's your most reliable route to orgasm? Only 4% say intercourse alone and the other 96% who do orgasm because there's several who say I don't orgasm say either clitoral stimulation alone or clitoral stimulation coupled with penetration. So there's a lot of reasons for the orgasm gap, but the number one reason is our cultural ignoring and ignorance of the clitoris, which is the equivalent of the penis and what needs to be stimulated for most women to experience an orgasm.

Speaker 1: 8:25

So do we say intercourse or sex? I mean, do we say I had intercourse or I had sex, or do we use neither of those terms? I think we say intercourse.

Speaker 2: 8:38

But if we use the word sex we have to start meaning it broadly an entire sexual encounter and we have to get rid of this equating sex and intercourse. We have to stop using the word foreplay. Let me put it to you this way If we overvalued women's most reliable to orgasm the way we overvalue men's most reliable to orgasm, we would call foreplay sex an intercourse, host play. But I'm not suggesting we do that, I'm not suggesting we turn the tables, but I am suggesting that we consider both women and men's most reliable route to orgasm clitoral stimulation, penal stimulation, equally sex, equally as important in a sexual encounter that there isn't one main event that we revolve it around, You're getting there.

Speaker 1: 9:33

But I wanted to ask you had a few goals in mind, I think one of them is what is the value of beginning not to call intercourse sex, which we've just discussed, and the other one is to place the clitoris in the public eye. What do you mean by that and how do we go about doing that?

Speaker 2: 9:56

I think there's a lot of studies that people are uncomfortable with the word clitoris. They're uncomfortable with women's sexuality. There's lots of censorship around it. For example, one vibrator company got rejected from a clitoral vibrator company from advertising on the New York subway when they would advertise for Viagra. So we definitely censor the clitoris.

Speaker 2: 10:25

People will report being uncomfortable with the term, which I mean, and you believe me, you cannot orgasm until you get comfortable with that word and in fact there was one study that said simply being more comfortable with that word is going to be correlated with more orgasms. But by putting it in the public eye, I mean conversations like this, where women are not, instead of saying I feel broken which I've heard so many times because I don't orgasm from sex, meaning intercourse, where it's just openly talked about like of course you don't because you need clitoral stimulation. That is what, and I'm not diminishing women who do orgasm from penetration alone. Let me be clear However you get there is great in the right way for you. I am simply pointing this out because the overwhelming majority of women don't orgasm that way, yet all the images and the language implies that they should.

Speaker 1: 11:32

Now, this is just a little side note, but I had to giggle when you pointed out that the vibrator was the fifth appliance to be electrified, after the sewing machine, the fan, the tea kettle and the toaster. And I'm thinking, wow, that's really interesting, because I think those other appliances go way back and yet there was a vibrator that was up and out there. I'm just curious, and I'm not even sure you have investigated this, but I'm clear here I'm clitor-clerious, I'm not uncomfortable saying clitor-us that. I'm just curious to know how women even found out about this, if there is this tendency not to be able to advertise.

Speaker 2: 12:24

Yeah, they used to advertise them as personal massage tools in women's magazines. So people would buy them, certainly knew how to use them, but they were not advertised when they were invented as sexual devices. But speaking of advertising, here's something I think you'll find really interesting, jane that the vibrator has so much empirical support in terms of helping women experience orgasm that a recent article came out for physicians that said we should stop calling these toys. We need to call these medical devices because they are so effective in helping women experience orgasm and there's reasons for that. We have receptors to vibration all through our vulva.

Speaker 2: 13:15

The vulva is the outside area. In case people don't know, because that's another language problem, right Side note, we call our entire genital vagina. When the vagina is the canal where penises can go in, babies can come out. The vulva is the external area where the external clitoris lives and other erotic parts. So in terms of like, that takes me full circle that they were advertised as massagers, then they were advertised as sex toys, but now we have a movement of some physicians saying let's not call them toys.

Speaker 2: 13:50

They're not toys, they're medical devices, because a lot of women do not have orgasm until they use their first vibrator.

Speaker 2: 13:59

That goes for younger women and also women who are on SSRIs, who are having trouble orgasming, which is a side effect of those antidepressants, or women who've gone through menopause. Often, the one thing that will indeed help them orgasm is a vibrator, because we have these things called Pestinian corpuscles all through our vulva which are receptors for vibration, and the penis has them as well. So I often, when I talk to couples about vibrators, I point out the research right that women who use them have easier and more frequent orgasms. Male partners who are comfortable with them have female partners who are more satisfied, and what I tell the men is guess what? You have those same corpuscles, so if your penis is down in that area while she's vibrating, you're going to catch some vicarious vibrations and you're going to have a good time. And I've never had a man who say that's not true, and in fact now they're making vibrators for men. Some people say clitoruses are small penises, but what I like to say is penises are big external clitoris.

Speaker 1: 15:17

And you point out something else which I found was fascinating, and I think you said that the clitoris is the only organ I guess we can call it or part of human anatomy that has a sole function of sexual pleasure.

Speaker 2: 15:34

Yes, that is true. It is the only organ in the human body that has no other purpose but pleasure. Now, since I wrote that, there's some people saying you know what? It does have a purpose other than that. And I'm like, really, what is that? And it's still related to pleasure, because they're saying if women are getting pleasure, they're more likely to want to engage sexually. And if they're more likely to want to engage sexually they might indeed get pregnant more often. But still, in its bottom line, it is not required for conception, right? Think of so many women who've conceived without an orgasm, without clitoral stimulation. Its only purpose is pleasure.

Speaker 1: 16:20

Yes, exactly, and I was going to ask in your experience, or surveys, or informal surveys, how do men feel about women actually using a vibrator during? Am I going intercourse sex? I'm so confused. But all that good stuff, all that good stuff, all that good stuff.

Speaker 2: 16:43

It depends on the man. But here's the thing. A lot of people blame men for the orgasm gap. Oh, they don't care about women's pleasure. I'm not in that camp at all. Certainly there are some men. If you find one, run, run fast, bye-bye. But most men care so much about women's pleasure that the research shows they consider it a part of their masculinity. They feel more masculine when a woman has an orgasm.

Speaker 2: 17:12

However, they've been misguided the same way we have by the culture. They think the way to do that is to last long, thrust hard, have a big penis and many women will tell you no, I don't want one that big, it could hurt and I don't want it to go on that long. And a lot of times women's reason for faking is to have intercourse end. So I think if a man is educated about the clitoris, then it makes sex better for him because he can say hey, bring your vibrator. Hey, teach me how to use your vibrator. He can have so much fun with that.

Speaker 2: 17:51

I have a client. She's in her 60s and she just after a period of grief after using her partner of many, many years, she's involved with a new hen and this is the first time a man, including her partner in years, was comfortable with the vibrator, and both he, who I've talked to as well, and she now report it's the best sex they've ever had. And the research shows that, too, a man's acceptance of his partner's vibrator use is highly correlated related to her sexual satisfaction.

Speaker 2: 18:28

So I think it's about education and reeducation.

Speaker 1: 18:32

So now, when you are possibly spending the night with someone, they can say pack your bag and make sure you have a toothbrush and some toothpaste, and maybe a sexy nightgown and some slippers oh and, by the way, would you please bring your vibrator as well. And don't forget some lube.

Speaker 2: 18:52

Because toothpaste goes to toothbrush as vibrator goes to lube, and toothbrushes are often used as vibrators if people don't have one right, and vulvas are not supposed to be meant touch dry. So putting salube on the outside of your vulva is gonna really enhance the pleasure. And you can also put some in your vagina with a little medicine syringe before penetration and that can enhance the pleasure as well, because women have something called arousal non-concordance. What that means is we might be like, oh, I'm super interested in our heads and not lubricate, or we might be lubricated and not interested. So lube and vibrators are actually amazing sexual enhancements.

Speaker 1: 19:40

And it just seems to me, because I know some listeners out there are post-menopausal intellectually, or they want to have sex, but it's painful and perhaps they've gone through all kinds of what do they call them estrogen rings and so forth and so on and they still find intercourse very uncomfortable. But I think what I'm hearing is that, hey, you can still have a great sex life and you don't necessarily have to deal with penetration. But you know right.

Speaker 2: 20:15

So a couple things. So for people who are perimenopausal or menopausal, I'm not a physician, but I certainly know enough to say this but not to give medical advice. When our estrogen decreases we experience what used to be called vaginal atrophy, but we then realize, ooh, that's kind of a negative term the genital urinary symptoms of menopause. Because our vaginal walls thin, we lubricate less. Sometimes the muscle at the vaginal opening without estrogen will freeze and that's gonna create painful sex intercourse. See, even I can make the mistake sometimes. And so what I wanna tell women is there are FDA approved things that can be done for that. There are over the counter. There's a couple over the counter things that are FDA approved. I'm not gonna list them all, but I do wanna say see a certified menopause practitioner. You can find one on the NAMS National North American Menopause Society website. They'll know what to give you to help restore that vaginal tissue.

Speaker 2: 21:23

But that is not enough for many women. They still need either vaginal moisturizers, which is the kind of thing you put in every day, and during the sexual encounter, they need lube and they need vibrators, and also a lot of times what happens is, after the menopause, if you're not on the right treatment it starts to hurt. A lot of women start rushing through it too, like I'm just gonna get this over with my husband and or my partner, and they don't take the time to build arousal. And that's really important for sex not to be painful, and also, sex is not supposed to be painful. Intercourse is not supposed to be painful.

Speaker 2: 22:04

If you are still, if you are having pain, see a sexual medicine physician or if, depending on your age, or a NAMS certified physician. There are things that can be done. Menopause does not need to signal the end of your sex life, and you're absolutely right. There was a book by Peggy Climepets called Magnificent Sex. She interviewed a bunch of people and she found that most people who were having magnificent sex said it started after age 50, and a big reason they attributed it to is they weren't so penetration focused. They could share pleasure in many other ways.

Speaker 1: 22:46

And don't you think also they might have been more comfortable in communicating their needs to their partners? I know you talk about the importance of communication. I think there are a lot of women that are very hesitant. I know that you talk about the fact that men actually have more positive attitudes toward women's genitals than women do, so what do we do about all of that?

Speaker 2: 23:13

All the things, right, we're talking about it. Your genitals are beautiful. Your lips are not supposed to be, even in a tea. Really, look at yourself, find the beauty in your Volvo number one. And yes, communication is the bedrock to make your bedrock. They are.

Speaker 1: 23:31

I love it, and I also read that you said the best way to define orgasm is to put your hand in your pants and give yourself one. And yet, when I talk to some women, they find the idea maybe not of clitoral stimulation, but they find the idea of actually using a mirror to look at themselves and understand and appreciate the beauty. And I've heard several people say, oh no, I'm not going to do that.

Speaker 2: 24:01

Yeah and it's like, but that's due to deep rooted shame about our bodies, about our sexuality. And I have worked with clients who had the same thing. They had a really built up to look at themselves and they'll come back and go oh it's ugly. And I'll say you got to keep looking at it to can appreciate beauty in every ball is beautiful. It's there, they're like snowflakes, they're like our sexual fingerprint and it's really important, because if you don't really understand your own anatomy, how are you going to explain it to a partner?

Speaker 1: 24:35

Exactly, and that just sort of led to what I'm fortunately, is going to probably have to be our last discussion, and that is about teaching your partner about what helps you orgasm. And again it's that communication. But I'm extrapolating. I mean, if men feel more comfortable than women do with their genitals, then it seems to me a lot of this is going on in the women's heads, right About? Oh man, I feel uncomfortable here. He's never going to understand. He probably closes his eyes and doesn't want to look either, Right?

Speaker 2: 25:13

which is not true at all, and in fact it is so much. It is so much about feeling comfortable and confident to say what we want to show our partner. And also it's no less sex if you touch yourself during intercourse or use your vibrator. And men are very excited by women's excitement. So if you're excited, they're going to be super into it and happy. And I do this little thought experiment with many clients. They say, oh yeah, I'm a feminist, I consider my pleasure important. I'll say, ok, great, let's do a little experiment. Imagine you're getting it on with a man and you don't have an orgasm and he does. How do you feel? I'm a little disappointed, but not too upset. Now imagine you orgasm. He doesn't. How do you feel? What did I do wrong? That's the first thing I hear. And so it's really getting into those deeply ingrained subconscious beliefs that our role is to please our partner and rather than to be empowered and give pleasure.

Speaker 1: 26:19

I think that's a really important observation and message that we can share. And speaking about sharing, can you tell listeners how they might be able to read more about you or read other things that you've written?

Speaker 2: 26:34

Absolutely so. My website is wwwdoctorlorymenscom. From there you can go read about my books. You can get links to my TED Talk. You can get links to both books I've written. I've written another book before becoming clitter. It called A Tired Woman's Guide to Passionate Sex, which is for women who say their desire has diminished. You can go to my social media platforms. I'm on Instagram, Facebook, Pinterest. As of this morning, I'm on threads. Do you know about that? No, what is threads?

Speaker 2: 27:13

This was brand new this morning. It's Instagram's new platform to get people away from Twitter. It's very similar to Twitter and I'm there. I'm still on Twitter and you can follow me on social media, but all my handles are the same, dr Lori Menz, and I hope to see some of the listeners on my social media or checking out my website or my book.

Speaker 1: 27:37

I am expecting that the number of downloads is going to explode with this discussion. I can't wait to see, and I am so, so happy that we finally had this opportunity to talk, deeply appreciated. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 27:54

It was my pleasure and I hope it brings pleasure to many listeners. Okay, bye.

Speaker 1: 28:01

Bye. Thank you so much for joining me on this episode of Older Women and Friends Speaking of friends. Please tell yours about this podcast and if you'd like to contact me with comments or suggestions, you can email me at olderwomenandfriendspodcastatgmailcom. And while you're at it, please take a few minutes to write a review. It's really easy. Go to Apple Podcasts, type in older women and friends, scroll down the page and click on Reviews. Until next time.