Reimagining Retirement, Friendships, & A Lot More with Helen Hirsh Spence

Speaker 1: 0:06

Do you feel overlooked and invisible because you're an older woman? Have you had those age jump days when you look in the mirror and swear that you're looking at your mother? Do you feel the clock ticking and wonder whether you have enough time to check off all the items on your bucket list? Hello, I'm Jane Leder and I'm the host of Older Women and Friends, a podcast about and four older women that kick stereotypes to the curb. We older women are the keepers of stories, and guests on Older Women and Friends share their stories about love, loss, dreams, friendships. But let's not kid ourselves Aging can be a messy, complex affair. But older women have been around the block a few times and learned a thing or two, and this podcast celebrates their lessons. So put in your earbuds and join me on Older Women and Friends.

Speaker 1: 1:13

Have you ever been told that you're too old for the job or that a new, fresh team is what the company needs? Have you been passed over for a more important position that you deserved and wondered if it was because you were a woman, an older woman? You're not alone. If you answered yes to any of these questions.

Speaker 1: 1:35

Age discrimination is alive and well in the workplace and everywhere else in our culture, ensure their channels set up for you to plead your case, but, based on the women I've talked to, their complaints are rarely addressed. So what are your options? Well, you can scream, you can cry, you can throw everything on your office desk on the floor, you can quit immediately, even if you want or need your job. But none of these reactions will remedy the fact that you're an older woman and that, in many cases, you are seen as over the hill, irrelevant, replaceable. So this is where a woman like Helen Hearst-Spence makes her mark. Helen is the founder of Top 60 Over 60, a social enterprise that provides tools and training to address ageism and to promote age diversity in the workplace and beyond. Welcome, helen. How are you today?

Speaker 2: 2:43

I'm great thanks for inviting me on your podcast.

Speaker 1: 2:47

Pleasure. So, as you may or may not know, older women and friends, the podcast centers around stories and how the stories of the women I interview can provide information and encouragement and, hopefully, solutions. So can you please tell us your story and how you moved from the educational arena to launching Top 60 Over 60? Gladly.

Speaker 2: 3:18

I guess what the major motivation was my own personal experience with aging and the sensation of feeling irrelevant, invisible and no longer worthy of the respect of others, and this came about sort of gradually. However, I realized that I wasn't alone, that other women, in particular of my generation, were also feeling slightly down and under. It was a period in my mid-60s, I'd say I had still been very actively involved with a lot of not-for-profit work. I loved what I was doing. It was exciting, but what I didn't experience were tangible results, because I was always a consultant in on a project overseas In this case it was the Canadian Executive Services Organization and therefore I was only in for part of the time and I never got to see the end. Having said that, it was rewarding. I had wonderful experiences, but when I stopped doing something like that, I felt like there's something missing and I didn't try to find another job or anything, but I kept thinking what can I still do? I have energy, I have experienced, I have expertise. I was in my mid-60s, so I had life experience. What am I going to do now that's going to be meaningful and that will take me forward?

Speaker 2: 4:46

And I realized at that same time that I was among a group of an age group that was less and less desirable.

Speaker 2: 4:54

We weren't represented in the media and advertising and speaking with others, I realized it was not what I thought, which was sort of depression. It was actually ageism. It was internalized or self-directed ageism, because I had myself internalized all those negative messages about getting older, being over the hill, not being able to teach an old dog new tricks. I had internalized those and I believed them and I realized this is so damaging, not only to my own self-confidence but to a whole generation and I'm talking about women in particular, because of gendered ageism and it particularly affects women that our potential and the productivity that we still could contribute is being undermined by society, not by one person, but that we also were perpetuating those myths. So I decided I'm going to do something about it, and that's when I decided to start a social enterprise, took courses in social entrepreneurship and consulted with lots of people. Didn't know what I was doing, but that's really the genesis of top 60 over 60.

Speaker 1: 6:02

So you mentioned gendered ageism. What actually does that mean?

Speaker 2: 6:07

Well, it's the intersection of sexism and ageism. So if you think about work in particular, look at who's at the top of the hierarchy. Regularly it's older white men. They may be bald, they may have pot bellies, but somehow they're considered distinguished. And yet we who may be far better looking, with our gray hair and maybe a couple more inches around the waistline, totally presentable and whatnot, we're considered irrelevant or not valued. So there's a real disconnect there in society and it's troubling and I believe we have to do something about it. I mean, there are enough of us now in this generation who should own that and see it for what it is and try to do something about it. But it seems like it's the same old issue as always has been. And looking at what's happening in the United States today not to get into politics, but a lot of the rights that we fought for in our generation are being lost.

Speaker 1: 7:14

Tell me about it. I don't want to get started on that either. I'm curious how you took the name of Top 60 over 60. We read all the time about the movers and shakers in their 30s or even their 40s and it's like that's great, I'm impressed, I'm happy. I love the fact that younger people are stepping up to the plate. But you didn't do 30s or 40s, so how did you come up with the age of 60?

Speaker 2: 7:47

That pissed me off so much that I decided to do Top 60 over 60. That's really wise. I realized that these were all excellent role models for younger people, and for youth in particular. To look at when you're a teenager, 30 and 40 is like ancients. I know that from having spent my career in high schools as a principal, so I know that that's necessary. But what about other generations? We have such a negative impression about older people. I wanted to inspire young and old and older to help them understand that aging is privilege, that aging is something to be proud of, because the alternative isn't great, it's death, and that we need to reframe the whole narrative around aging. And so I deliberately called it top 60 over 60.

Speaker 1: 8:44

And it's interesting because I have a blog 70 and me and I realize, as I turn 78 next week, that I don't have much time and that I'm going to have to change that name as well, and I'm not sure how that's going to play out.

Speaker 2: 9:01

Top 60 over 60, could be over 70. And now I'm in my mid 70s, so I didn't change the name, and that's not why I would. But I do think that time goes by and we just get better, don't we, jane? I?

Speaker 1: 9:16

couldn't agree with you more, and that's why I decided to pull all of my experience and all the tools excuse me in my toolbox and do a podcast. I'd never done a podcast before and I find it challenging and informative, and I am so glad that I found something else that captures my attention and prompts me to think and to read and then to talk to wonderful people like yourself. I'm curious are there men in top 60 over 60?

Speaker 2: 9:53

Well, there could be sure, but the reality is so. I have a newsletter and I've got about 1,000 subscribers. They're men and women. I'm not just concerned about women, I'm really concerned about all old. The reality, however, is that the people who connect and those who take courses and want to tend to be women men have a harder time, I believe, internalizing perhaps that they may have issues with getting older. They don't necessarily have the friendships and relationships that women have cherished over their lifetimes, and so they are more, I think, at a loss and don't necessarily contribute to conversations or courses that I've offered. So it's not exclusive, but the reality is that gendered ageism is so prevalent that I believe that has to be a focus and I talk about it, but it's not meant to be exclusive. It's just the major barrier for people who are aging, especially in the workforce. The barrier is mostly for women, not for men.

Speaker 1: 10:59

Let's talk about the workforce for a minute. Most of us, at least in the States, are very aware of the Social Security Act, but that was passed back in 1935. And it was set up to give some kind of financial insurance to Americans 65 and older, and the money has been a godsend for millions and millions of people. But you talk about the fact that it's time to reinvent what we think of retirement age at 65 and how we can in fact do that, and how does the average lifespan that has increased exponentially influence your thoughts on that? Sorry, I just blasted you with three questions, I didn't mean to do that.

Speaker 2: 11:57

First, of all, yes, the Social Security Act was formulated in time when the average lifespan was 62. So 65 was really a reward for living that long. That made sense Last century in the 1930s. We're almost a century beyond that and we haven't changed that time. So it's absurd, because our average lifespan now is about in the 80s. It's about 82, I think, per man 84. It depends on which country you go to, but let's say on average, 83.

Speaker 2: 12:29

So if my average lifespan is 83 and yet the expectation is still that I'm going to stop working or be pushed out at age 65. I still have the equivalent of an adult lifetime. Besides rising costs and challenges financially. What am I going to do in order to remain relevant, feel good, not be lonely? Not everybody can rely on children or relatives or whatever to get involved.

Speaker 2: 13:01

So the research is pretty conclusive that you're going to live longer if you have purpose in life. So purpose often is derived from people's work. We know that well, although it doesn't have to be. Yet.

Speaker 2: 13:14

What's happened over my lifetime anyway is that the people with whom I most associated during my work tenure were colleagues from work, and once that's taken away, your whole social network falls apart. Now, that wasn't the case with me, but the point is that typically is the case, and people don't realize how important it is to have connections and relationships beyond work, which is one of the reasons why I think it's extremely important this is an aside, but I think it's important. It's to have relationships with younger people and older people, because it's the only way in which we can bridge generations, share information and knowledge and life experience, as well as not find ourselves empty when all our current friends are no longer part of our lives for whatever reason, whether it's dementia or sickness or death, and so I'm a real advocate of intergenerational connections and the multi-generational workforces. And I've totally lost where we were going with your multiple work.

Speaker 1: 14:24

That's okay, because you went right into what I wanted to talk about, which is your focus on the value of intergenerational, of an intergenerational workforce, and is there research to back that up in terms of the advantages of having older and young people working together?

Speaker 2: 14:48

Yes, there is, and it's quite conclusive. Productivity increases apparently. I can't give you the sources right off hand, but it is all based. These answers are all based in what I've read from research. One of the interesting things that I read was that when older people are present in the workforce, that it tends to help retain the younger people. There's a transfer of information and knowledge, and institutional, corporate knowledge as well is transferred very often to individuals. I would say that mentorship happens informally very often in those situations and it's reciprocal. In other words, if I'm working with somebody who's younger, hopefully I'm open to some of their ideas and their skills and knowledge and whenever I have been in that situation, I've learned so much from the other person. It's probably been more beneficial to me than it has been to them. So productivity improves Very often. The culture improves, as I mentioned, as retention. There's an improved bottom line. So, yeah, there are tons of advantages.

Speaker 2: 15:53

And it really. It just makes sense. I don't know why we make such a fuss about the multi-generational workforce, because it was always the norm prior to the 1950s, let's put it that way. That's when we really started age-segregating in a serious way. I mean it originated really at the end of last century with the Industrial Revolution and with children being protected and schools being based on age groups as opposed to anything else, and that has again. That's another institution that hasn't changed significantly since the beginning of two centuries ago, or the beginning of last century, let's put it that way.

Speaker 2: 16:33

I worked in schools most of my career. So, if I think about it, I spent probably about 55 years in schools because I was a student and then I was a child student, then a college or university student, then I became a teacher, a principal. I had ministers, always in schools. Every one of my roles involved young people, my age, parents or L older people, superintendents, directors. They were all older, several different generations. It was the norm and although it's the norm for many people, I don't think they even think of it as being multi-generational. So now it's become a bigger thing. They've always been older and younger, but we have done a really good job, siloing ages in workplaces and putting generations against one another, setting them against one other by making stupid comments like those lazy millennials or, okay, boomer, those just pick one generation against another and that's very destructive. What we need to do is build bridges, not break them down.

Speaker 1: 17:35

So I'm assuming, then that informs your opinion about the damage that's done when we create, I don't know, retirement settlements or long-term care facilities or retirement zones, which just sounds awful, and so I'm assuming that is something you feel very strongly about.

Speaker 2: 18:00

I do. I think that it's absurd. Life isn't just 55 and aboves anywhere, or it shouldn't be. And I think people are beginning to realize now when they start putting classrooms into seniors' residences, directly into them in preschool, nursery schools and whatnot. They have rooms in residences in long-term care because they see the value of older people interacting with younger ones and the need of little ones to have somebody to whom they can turn or become a friend of. It's so significant and you can see how it lights up the world for older people. So to keep them separated is antithetical to what needs to be done. Just by holding a child's hand I mean, think about it when you're older it there isn't as much touch, unless you have an animal or a child nearby or somebody you love and you're fortunate enough you can hug them. But those are such basic needs and yet we're denying them to older people when they're segregated into communities or home and whatnot. So yes, I'm certainly an advocate of breaking that down.

Speaker 1: 19:12

And you mentioned the little ones and I think in a pre-interview conversation you mentioned that children become ages by the time they are three, and that absolutely floored me. And then you talked about fairy tales and I wonder if you can explain what you meant.

Speaker 2: 19:36

So this is based on a research study that was done in Brussels but that they determined then it was three or four, when young children already have developed ages beliefs. My conclusion from that is that it must come in part from the traditional fairy tales and stories that we read to children. I don't know if we still do, but that we used to read. If you think about it, who's the witch? The witch is always the woman with the gray hair, and which she often has a big nose, and so therefore, whether it's Sleeping Beauty or Little Red Riding Hood or any of the grim fairy tales and so on, they're often old women who are contributing to something devastating that's happening, and so the children, I think, probably associate that. That's my interpretation. I'm not saying that's research or anything. The other thing is that the men tend to be the wizards, like in the Wizard of Oz, and that really honestly makes me angry too.

Speaker 1: 20:39

I get it. I get it and I hadn't really thought about that until you mentioned it, and it's a fascinating concept and more than likely the major concern, although I'm sure younger kids pick up attitudes from parents and of course they watch TV ads and the way in which older women are portrayed having gray hair, looking frumpy, or they're so exaggerated that you go, you know what that woman is in her 40s, I would guess and again so it reinforces this picture of older women, as you said, as being the bad people, the witches, and the men as the wizards and the know-alls. And very fascinating theory. And I want to know also how attitude affects how long we lived.

Speaker 2: 21:39

I also wanted to add just to you're so right, I think a lot of the notions that parents have or the attitudes are conveyed to their children unbeknownst to them, and they could make just some silly, offhanded comment and that is something that a child will remember. So I think that's accurate. It's very interesting to read about the research, and it's a lot done by Becca Levy, and she has an excellent book that I highly recommend Breaking the Age.

Speaker 1: 22:07

What was that? Breaking the Age code? Yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:11

Okay, becca Levy, about the how positive mindsets affect your health and well-being as you ate. In fact, if you think positively about aging, you have a chance of healing more quickly, walking more quickly. They've done all of the research on this, so it's quite conclusive. And we talked before about solutions. There's really nothing much we can do about aging in terms of not trying to change it or deny it. The solution that I see is proudly proclaiming it and believing firmly that this is something that's positive. So we have control over our reactions and our mindset, and one of the things I know.

Speaker 2: 22:58

When I started doing this, I deliberately learned about all the benefits of getting older and I recognize them not only in myself but also in others that it does make a huge difference it really does and wanting to be around people who share similar mindsets as opposed. So it's really. It's a growth mindset, as opposed to a fixed mindset, which Carol Dweck talks about in her research and the book mindset. It's a growth mindset, but it's a positive one. It's really focusing on the positives. So you may be suffering from some illness, but instead of dwelling on all the things you no longer can do, focus on the things that you are still able to do, and that will really change the way in which you feel about yourself and how it impacts your lifespan and your longevity, so that it is possible, with gratitude and optimism and involvement, that not only will we be happier, but we may live longer as well and be able to continue to contribute Seven, five years, to be precise, and that's something to stake a claim on.

Speaker 1: 24:14

I would certainly look forward to that. Well, I would like you to tell the listeners how they can reach you, find out more about top 60 over 60, and also how they can find out more about you personally and your background and the theories under which you're operating in terms of your social and how do I refer to it? As a social enterprise? Is that the correct terminology? Okay, so fire away. How can people find more about?

Speaker 2: 24:51

you. First and foremost, they can always go to LinkedIn, and I'm there under Helen Hirschspens. I recently Googled myself because I speak at many engagements and so I wanted to see if I had a presence on Google and obviously I found that I did. So you can find me that way, but I'm Helen at top60over60.com and I would welcome anybody who's interested in coaching or finding out about courses and maybe helping their own business or their husbands or somebody else's corporate.

Speaker 2: 25:25

I do training for age diversity, which is neglected in most diversity strategies. So there are a number of things that I like to do, love to do, and really I am all about helping my generation, a future generation, value what it means to grow older and I deliberately say grow older rather than getting older, because we're growing still and there's research about brains and how they expand or how they it's not decline necessarily and there's so much positive about aging that we don't recognize and that we don't proclaim loudly enough. And the reality is, jane, that the children born today are going to have hundred year lifespans on average. So things are changing. It's just that we cling to outdated notions and retirement is probably one of the most dangerous, if I dare say. So I hope people get in touch. It's Helen at top60over60.

Speaker 1: 26:28

And I'll be happy to list all of these links and contacts in the show notes. So, audience, when you're listening, and at the end of that, if you want to get in touch with Helen, I'll make it as easy as possible. Thank you so much. This has been a good, fascinating and informative discussion.

Speaker 2: 26:51

Thank you, jane, and I appreciate all the research you've done. You really know the subject well. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 26:59

Thank you so much for joining me on this episode of Older Women and Friends Speaking of friends. Please tell yours about this podcast and if you'd like to contact me with comments or suggestions, you can email me at OlderWomenandFriendsPodcastcom. And while you're at it, please take a few minutes to write a review. It's really easy. Go to Apple Podcasts, type in Older Women and Friends, scroll down the page and click on Reviews. Until next time.