Shannon Jarrott’s grandmother never lived in the family’s home but played a big role in Shannon’s and, eventually, her younger brother’s lives. Her grandmother was there when she got off the school bus. She was there for the long, carefree summer days. She is, says Shannon, why she became a gerontologist and expert on intergenerational relationships—relationships between a much older or much younger person. In this episode, Shannon discusses the many ways and places to make new friends. She talks about how the COVID-19 pandemic spotlighted the need to be socially connected with each other. Research has shown that being socially isolated can affect our heart health, our brain health, and our longevity. Having friendships, says Shannon, keeps us healthy. Bringing together people from different age groups is a win-win.
Shannon Jarrott’s grandmother never lived in the family’s home but played a big role in Shannon’s and, eventually, her younger brother’s lives. Her grandmother was there when she got off the school bus. She was there for the long, carefree summer days. She is, says Shannon, why she became a gerontologist and expert on intergenerational relationships—relationships between a much older or much younger person. In this episode, Shannon discusses the many ways and places to make new friends. She talks about how the COVID-19 pandemic spotlighted the need to be socially connected with each other. Research has shown that being socially isolated can affect our heart health, our brain health, and our longevity. Having friendships, says Shannon, keeps us healthy. Bringing together people from different age groups is a win-win.
Do you feel overlooked and invisible because you're an older woman? Have you had those age jump days when you look in the mirror and swear that you're looking at your mother? Do you feel the clock ticking and wonder whether you have enough time to check off all the items on your bucket list? Hello, I'm Jane Leder and I'm the host of Older Women and Friends, a podcast about and four older women that kick stereotypes to the curb. We older women are the keepers of stories, and guests on Older Women and Friends share their stories about love, loss, dreams, friendships. But let's not kid ourselves Aging can be a messy complex of fair, but older women have been around the block a few times and learned a thing or two, and this podcast celebrates their lessons. So put in your earbuds and join me on Older Women and Friends.
Speaker 1:If you've been listening to this podcast and I hope you have you know that the topic of friendships comes up a lot. Guests have talked about the importance of having good friends as we age and yet the challenges older people face in making new friends. The idea of intergenerational friendships, that's, friendships with people who are much younger or much older, has also been mentioned in the podcast, but not thoroughly discussed. So when I read a piece in the New York Times about the joys of these intergenerational friendships, I contacted Dr Shannon Jarrett, who is one of the experts quoted in the piece. Dr Jarrett is a professor of social work at THE Ohio State University, and I say that because, yes, I follow sports and the doctor's research focuses on intergenerational community building strategies. And, don't worry, I'll ask her for a definition. So welcome Dr Jarrett to Older Women and Friends.
Speaker 2:Hi Jane, it's lovely to be here. Please call me Shannon Perfect.
Speaker 1:So can you tell me what was your childhood?
Speaker 2:like my parents, were a Navy couple. My dad enlisted in the Navy because he knew, based on his draft number, that he would otherwise be drafted, so he and my mom decided to enlist and, as a result, he was overseas on a ship, sometimes six months out of every year. My grandmother was older when she had my mom and thus actually was an older adult. When I was born, she was 65, and she was widowed shortly thereafter, and my mom was her only child, and so we were her family and she moved when we moved. She never lived with us, but she was always available, and she really is the reason that I do what I do. She was there for us to get off of the bus, she was there for us to spend summer days with, and then, when I was 16, my parents had my brother, and so I had a little bit more perspective.
Speaker 2:Our grandmother was still alive. She was 81 when he was born and she stepped into that day-to-day caregiving role again, and she told us frequently that my brother gave her a reason to get up in the morning, and we knew that he couldn't have gotten better care anywhere else. And so I've been writing about these types of relationships since I was a senior in high school, applying to colleges, and I knew that I was interested in this magic and realized that there are people who don't have grandparents and grandchildren around, like my siblings and I did, and so I'm interested in how we can help other people in the community to have the benefit of those intergenerational ties.
Speaker 1:Fabulous. I was hoping that was going to be the situation. I mean, I'm always interested in a connection between a woman's childhood and then how she eventually gets to where she gets, and so the listeners should know that you are a gerontologist, of course, and that you also teach, if I'm correct, and you also research, when I was in graduate school I got introduced to family caregiving for relatives with Alzheimer's disease and dementia and that was a new subject to me.
Speaker 2:I was very fortunate to have not experienced that in my family, and I got introduced to the community-based program Adult Day Services, and so I know we're here to talk about friendship, maybe with people who are a little bit closer together than, say, residential care, older adults and very young children. But I welcome the chance to disabuse the idea that frail older adults aren't good candidates for spending time with young people. I know you're about relationships and for me, all about the relationship building, and you can do that even with these really young children. Or we see high school and university students who will sometimes engage in intergenerational programs with frail older adults.
Speaker 1:Well, can we talk about the advantages of these intergenerational relationships, whether they're in a supervised setting, as you've just described, or whether it's just me, as a 78 year old who has befriended my next door neighbor who's 32. What are the advantages for the older person and the younger person, or are they the same for both age groups?
Speaker 2:Well, that's a complicated answer. No, what's really clear of Jane is that we never stopped developing. That is a relatively new idea. People used to think we stopped developing once we became sexually mature and luckily, people in my field, whose work I borrow from, show that we never stop facing new developmental challenges, experiencing gains at the same time that we're navigating loss and decline always. And we need each other to navigate these developmental goals.
Speaker 2:So babies they need a trusting, caring adult who's going to respond to them when they have needs. School age children they need adults that they can try out different identities and get feedback on for what's socially and not socially acceptable. And as we move into middle adulthood and later adulthood we start to think about what have I passed along to the next generation? How do I reflect on and evaluate the life that I've lived to this point? What is still out there for me to accomplish, to feel good about the life I've led? And we need other people and sometimes it just isn't the same to be doing that with an age peer as it is with somebody who's a different age from us.
Speaker 1:Well, it's interesting because I read the results of a 2019, I think, aarp, let's hear it for the AARP survey, which said that 90% of the respondents who had an older or younger friend said the relationship gave them things that other friendships could not deliver. Is that something that you would agree with? Absolutely.
Speaker 2:If we think about the task that's most commonly, the developmental goal that's most commonly associated with middle adulthood is generativity. That's leaving something of yourself behind, passing what you know on to somebody else. I can't do that to my husband or my best friend who's the same age as I am. If I wanted to stick around after me, it has to be for somebody who's likely going to live a lot longer than me. Interesting we know that there's really interesting research coming out about the value of age diversity in friendships.
Speaker 1:And that's really what I was trying to get at. I get rumblings of that just from my own life and my circle of friends. I also know, however, that, at least for older people, it's challenging to know where to go to find these new friends If you don't have a very interesting neighbor, for example, or you're not taking some kind of dance class where there's a real diverse student base and I think you talked about that as well that it can be challenging to know where to go. It's like I know that I would like to have more friends that I know would be there for me no matter what day, no matter what time, but I think I need more, because what if they're no longer around, for example? So what kinds of suggestions do you have for older women like myself who want to expand the number of friends but don't know exactly how to go about it?
Speaker 2:Well, and in reality, I think people of all adults and well, and even teens, I think, people of all ages, from adolescents to older adults these days are having a harder time making friends and social connection, whether that's with their age peers or with people of different generations. So we're kind of all in the same boat. One of the things that I would recommend with regards to looking for places, in particular for older women, to find friends is to try and learn something new, and I have got a couple of reasons to recommend that. One is that there is some evidence that colleagues of mine have put out there that when we're learning something that is new to everybody involved, it kind of levels the playing field.
Speaker 2:And so for the young person who sees the older person walking in and they learn that no, they've never done stained glass, it kind of eliminates a preconception they might have that this person is going to tell them how to do things and be the knowledge master or mistress of all things. For the older person, it gives them relief that they don't have to have answers to anything. They've come to stained glass 101. Everybody's learning something new from this teacher, and I would probably pay attention to where these classes are offered. Of course, you can go to the senior center and take stained glass 101. You might find that you're interested in taking stained glass at your recreation and parks program or an arts program that is located in an urban area or a setting that might have more mixed age residents nearby.
Speaker 1:Well talking, about mixed age. I know that you have said that we're really good, at least in this country, in segregating age groups. Can you talk a little bit about how we do that and what possible solutions exist to get out of that mold?
Speaker 2:There are a lot of ways that we do that, and some of it is done to protect safety. Some of it is because of the way that monies are directed through policy, for example, programs that are geared for young children or programs that are intended to benefit an older adult population that has some income need, and as a result we create visible and environmental cues that another age group isn't welcome. And we might even have policy and regulations that say, for example this arose during COVID that older adults who were eligible for congregate meal sites, who were taking care of a grandchild or another young relative, were not able to get a meal for their child when they picked up that meal from the community Because the funding was for older adult meals and nutrition. So by trying to help, they also created this big problem for a growing segment of our population grandparent caregivers.
Speaker 1:Well, what's your take on, for example, on I don't know what they call them communities 55 and over, or, in fact, senior living communities? I'm talking about people who, I don't know, maybe are living in a large building with individual apartments, but it is definitely for seniors. What's your take? I'm going to make a guess, but I won't.
Speaker 2:Well, I do have some family members who love those types of communities, and I would say you're probably wouldn't guess that this is not the kind of community for me and fortunately though, I don't have data on it. There are community developers, there are architects, there are designers who are trying to create living spaces that are multi generational friendly. That may be strictly neighborhoods we're not here to build a congregate living site or something to that effect. That's the type of community that I would like, that would have different size homes, that would have accessible spaces that make it easy for people individuals and families of all ages to navigate and enjoy that time together. And so age friendly design I really important to me. It's something that I'll be looking for when I leave my home, that is, at least in a multi generational neighborhood. And then there are also some groups that are intentionally building living communities that are multi generational. Those tend to be oriented towards families that have got some particular needs for supports.
Speaker 1:And is it true that Americans, for the most part, are no longer living in multi-generational homes within their own family? We hear all the time about how in other countries like Japan, for example, grandparents and great-aunts and great-uncles are all welcome, and yet I don't see that very often in my world and I'm curious to know. What is a professional?
Speaker 2:It is hard to separate our cultural traditions and longevity, so it's really common to hear people refer back to the good old days when they were multi-generational households. But when this was happening, the average life expectancy might have been 45 or 50. And so even if you did have grandparents, parents and children in the household, they weren't in the household together for very long Because life expectancy was shorter. This also is a reflection of our agrarian society when you needed all hands on the farm to help with the farming duties. If you ask most adults, especially older adults, if they'd like to live on their own or with an adult child, most of them will tell you they'd like to be on their own, and there's a cultural piece there.
Speaker 2:I don't expect that. If you went to South Korea and asked older South Korean individuals what their preference is, you'd probably get a different split on that answer because of that American sense of autonomy and independence compared to more collectivist societies. I've already started making plans with my daughter for having some kind of poem design where we all have our own space, but we're in the same plot of land. I have a colleague who studies architecture and is trained as a gerontologist and who has done some really fascinating work, netta Naruzzi, who's thought about homes that you can age in from early adulthood to late life and who would also be a great resource to think about. How do you give people, particularly Americans, the privacy and autonomy they want, while giving them easy access to be a resource to each other?
Speaker 1:Fabulous. I have another survey from the Survey Center on American Life. I might have gotten this also from the same article that I was mentioning from the New York Times, which found that nearly a third of the seniors said it had been at least five years since they'd made a new friend. And that is startling, isn't it? She just said, wow. By the way, if that didn't come through, your response to that?
Speaker 2:It is disheartening, particularly because these were older adults who were surveyed. Yes, so these are adults who might also be leaving the workforce, they might be losing a spouse, they might have parents and friends who are deceased, and so they're losing friends and not making new ones. And there are ways in which I think that COVID has really shed a light on our need to be socially connected with each other, and it's my belief and I'm going to do my part to contribute to it that it is going to result in some serious attention to how we can help people, again, of all ages, connect with others in safe spaces. How do you create a space that is designed in a way that communicates a pro-aging and all ages welcome message?
Speaker 1:And just one more thing you talked about COVID and the pandemic and you referred to it even earlier in the conversation, although I didn't pick up on the thread and that we were talking about the need for friends that has been magnified, I think you were saying, as a result of the pandemic. I wonder if you could. I mean I can make some educated guesses, but I'd rather hear it from you.
Speaker 2:What has really come out. There's been some important research in the last five years, and Thomas Kujo is attached to that. There was a report from the National Academy of Science, engineering and Medicine Julia Folt-Lumstadt was one of the leading authors as well that pointed to the ill health effects and the impact on longevity that results when people are socially isolated.
Speaker 2:The surgeon general has picked up this baton.
Speaker 2:He's writing books, he's making landmark speeches about the need for us to support connectivity, and so once you can attach something that we probably used to think was just nice having friends, having somebody to go for a walk with or invite over for dinner on a Sunday evening we learn no, this is not just nice.
Speaker 2:This is essential to our heart health, our brain health, our mobility and our longevity. Having friendships keeps us healthy, gets us into healthy practices, it connects us to potential resources that help us to stay healthy and exercise good habits, and COVID has shown a light, and I think, as a result, we're going to see more evidence that points out how we can bring younger and older people together, how we can remain connected to the friends that we have, and that will start to direct money to programming to explore this, and so that's why you know, I'm really proud of the work that we've done. That can help intergenerational practitioners or younger and older people looking for friends to think about. What does a science tell us we should consider when we are getting together or trying to bring together people of different ages and experiences Perfect.
Speaker 1:That's just an eloquent answer that I appreciate and I'm sure our listeners will as well. I wish we had more time, but I see my little clock ticking away, so I want to thank you so much for sharing your expertise and your enthusiasm with me and hopefully with hundreds of listeners. And before I let you go, how can people find out about your research or get more information about you?
Speaker 2:Well, I have got plenty of information at the Ohio State University College of Social Work webpage. I am on several different social medias. I'm not on TikTok, I am on LinkedIn and X and Facebook, and a current project that I'm directing, bridge to Health, has got a website. We are bringing young and adult mentors together. They mentor each other and they are supporting health, life, skill building and resilience in both age groups. This is really a goose bumpy type conversation for me to have.
Speaker 2:I'm really inspired to think about where I can find younger and older friends. I'm really lucky the work that I do continues to introduce me to new professionals and, jane, I'm a knitter, and so I can go and hang out at the yarn shop and meet people of different ages. In addition to businesses and organizations and individuals thinking about how they can make spaces more accessible and friendly to older people who might be looking for friends, I think it's important for organizations more typically associated and populated by older members to think how they might make a space or a program more welcoming. And so back to my example of knitting. It's common for a church group to have a prayer blanket club. That is mostly older women in my limited experience and so those groups can also think about. How do we bring young people in groups that are predominated by younger people? How do we make this an age inclusive environment? It serves all of us.
Speaker 1:well, it does, and it sounds yummy and exciting. And thank you so, so much. I deeply appreciate you being here today. Thank you.
Speaker 2:It was really my pleasure and I hope you enjoy your multi-generational friends and I'll do the same.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thank you so much for joining me on this episode of Older Women and Friends Speaking of friends. Please tell yours about this podcast and if you'd like to contact me with comments or suggestions, you can email me at older women and friends podcast at gmailcom. And while you're at it, please take a few minutes to write a review. It's really easy. Go to Apple Podcasts type in older women and friends, scroll down the page and click on reviews. Until next time.