Badass Women In The Workplace with Bonnie Marcus

Speaker 1: 0:05

Hi, I'm Jane Leder, host of Older Women and Friends. You know, when it comes right down to it, I find aging to be a complex affair Highs, lows and everything in between. But as I see it, the one constant is change, and the key is how we adjust, how we transition. Do we start a new career, write that book we've had rolling around in our heads for years, move to warmer climbs, to be near our grandchildren, continue teaching or researching or coaching other women, or do we just hang out, travel and have a good time? The guests on Older Women and Friends have many stories to tell, to share, about what they've been up to and what they've learned along the way. So turn up the volume and join me on Older Women and Friends.

Speaker 1: 1:14

Any female podcast host who takes on aging and names her show Badass Women at Any Age is someone I'd like to meet. Any older woman who shouts that culture won't let us age in peace is right on. Any woman who writes a column about women in aging for Forbescom or who pens a book titled Not Done Yet, any coach who helps professional women on how to navigate the choppy waters in the workplace, that woman is someone I want to know. Bonnie Marcus, welcome to Older Women and Friends. Oh, jane, thank you so much for having me. My pleasure, so I love to ask guests to give me a very quick description of their childhoods. So what was your childhood?

Speaker 2: 2:08

like my, childhood was great. You know, I grew up in the suburbs in Connecticut and I had a pretty ideal childhood. My parents indulged me and gave me ballet lessons and piano lessons and I really flourished as a young kid and I have no major complaints about my parents and my childhood. I felt pretty confident as a kid and I have to say I was so precocious, oh my God. You know, talk about being a bad ass and I'm not sure, when you qualify, if you can qualify as a bad ass at age five or six. But that was me. I was like I'm going to win that prize and then I'm going to go there and do this, and there was nothing that I saw as obstacles in my way.

Speaker 1: 3:04

And it would seem as if that zest and that enthusiasm and that lack of fear for negative consequences has carried through to you today, which is why I'd love to ask guests about their childhoods, and you mentioned ballet lessons, and when we talked at another point, you also talked about ballet. Did you want to be a ballerina?

Speaker 2: 3:31

Oh yes, I so wanted to be a ballerina First. You know I love to dance. You know my whole life I still love to dance. But I pictured myself up on the stage, swan Lake prima ballerina, in the costumes, doing my thing, and it was so such a vivid dream that I had. And, as I said, my parents indulged me. I took ballet lessons like three times a week and I was pretty damn good, gotta say. And I took dance through high school. I even took it a little bit into college and ended up teaching dance after graduate school and I started my career in teaching.

Speaker 2: 4:14

But I was told that I would never make it as a ballerina. What was wrong with you? Well, I'm short and I am not built like a ballerina. I mean, I've got a chest and I don't have the long legs. And at the time when I was training as a ballerina, it was all about the stereotype of the Russian ballerina, right, and there was no Twyla Tharp, then there was no Martha Graham, then there was no exception to the rule and I didn't fit the mold.

Speaker 1: 4:51

I empathize. I looked at the dance book that my mother presented me with one year and, like you, I am not flat-chested, I don't have long slender legs, I can't reach my toes to my head and it was such a crushing realization. And that's when I started taking modern dance classes. So you make that transition in order to compensate. But I feel you, I feel your pain. So I know that you said you accidentally fell into business, just like. In some ways it sounds like kind of a circuitous route to becoming a kindergarten teacher, and I know you held several positions over the years, some of them very lofty. I also know that you had your own personal experiences with ageism and so you see how I'm sliding into women now and aging, and I wondered what your personal experience was in terms of being in the workplace and being a woman. How did that go? Well, it went really really well.

Speaker 2: 6:05

To a certain point and I see this a lot with women's careers it's like we advance our careers fairly quickly and then we may hit some kind of a roadblock. Early in my career I had wonderful female bosses who were role models who really helped me to navigate the workplace successfully, which I did. But there was a point I was working for a company for about eight years. We went through a number of different mergers and acquisitions and one merger led to me having a new male boss who came in from outside the company and he was very misogynistic. He was an incredible bully and when it came to filling an open position for VP at the time and I was super, super qualified, I had a great track record he gave that to a man from outside the company.

Speaker 2: 7:09

It was my first major roadblock at that point in time and I learned from that experience certainly about the importance of becoming politically savvy and building the right kind of relationships. And I didn't like this guy and I avoided him and that was a big mistake. Not that he would have promoted me anyway, because it was a woman, but it was a real blow to me. I was totally blindsided. So I had been in the workplace for many years. At this point I was 49, I think yeah, and I decided they offered me a lateral position and I'd have to relocate. And I said nah. At that point I reached out to my network and one of the women I had previously worked with told me about a CEO position that was open at her company. She thought it was qualified and, long story short, I did get that position and I left the other company, Gladly left the other company.

Speaker 1: 8:14

Well, you've touched on something that I know you've written about and that has to do with the importance of female models, mentors. And why is that so important? I mean, don't isn't it easy to find older women who can serve as models? What's going on here?

Speaker 2: 8:37

Well, we know there's a scarcity of women in top positions in companies. So, as a young woman, when you went to the company and you're looking up to see women who've been successful, there are very few and in fact, quite a few of the women may have been brought in. They didn't work their way up, they were recruited and brought in to leadership positions, so there really aren't the kind of role models that young women need to learn. Well, how do I navigate this mess? You know, how do I address work-life balance? How do I figure out what it takes for a woman to get ahead here? And certainly the advice that women who have been successful can give a younger woman is very important.

Speaker 1: 9:29

So is that where? And I should tell listeners that you are a coach and that you specialize correct me if I'm wrong in working with women in the workplace and giving them the kind of tools that they need, particularly in this situation where there aren't a lot of mentors, female mentors what kind of tips? And again, I'm sure your program and coaching can take months and months working with somebody, but are there a few tips that you can pass along to listeners right now about how they can make their experience in the business world better or less fraught with all kinds of stereotypes?

Speaker 2: 10:14

Well, the best tip I can give is to pay attention. We believe, to our detriment, that we believe in the meritocracy and we believe, if we keep our head down and work really hard, that people are going to notice and reward us for that. And you know and acknowledge our work. And though hard work and great results are important, that's not all you need to do, unfortunately. You really need to create visibility for yourself and you need to create credibility for yourself. And you know a lot of women. Just, their default is to do the hard work and that's their comfort zone.

Speaker 2: 10:58

And you know, as you mentioned, you know I'm a professional coach. Yes, because what I realized in my 20-year career in corporate America is there's so many talented women who are passed over. You know, as long as signs are not distributed, people need to be paid in certain way is what I think is the best way to improve the quality ofKO shows. But there's two things I can aqui, because they don't know how to advocate for themselves, they don't truly understand their value, and this translates to your entire career trajectory and in the Politics of Promotion, my first book, I talk about how important it is to understand your value proposition and build a network and understand the politics. And in my second book Not Done Yet. It's even more urgent. Right that if you want to stay marketable and keep your job, there's certain things that you need to do so that you don't hit the roadblocks or you don't get marginalized and pushed aside.

Speaker 1: 11:57

Well, you mentioned your second book, Not Done Yet, and while I have not had the pleasure of reading it all, I did read a sample chapter on Amazon and it is so sassy and so fun. It is not what I would say would be your stereotypical business book, which, just saying business book, I'm ready to head for the hills. So how come you know, is this the voice that you use? Do you find it successful? Do you find readers and clients cozying up to it? Do you find it more satisfying? You write as a badass and you are a badass.

Speaker 2: 12:43

You asked a really good question. If you look at the first book and you look at the second book, there's a definite difference in attitude, and that has to be. That had the lot to do with me owning the power of my age and just saying it like it is. And I think you get to a certain point in life where you're like OK, enough pussy-footing around here. I'm just going to say it like I see it and give direct advice to the best of my ability. When I was writing the book Not Done Yet the original title was Badass Women and the Age, which is now the title of my podcast, and I decided against the badass for the book title and my editor really agreed. But I started to do the podcast and I started to understand the power that we have as a certain age to really own who we are and own our story and to own our talent. And I just started to own that name and that title too, love it, love it.

Speaker 1: 13:55

You talk, I think, at one point and I've heard this from other guests as well about the need for women, particularly as we age, to take a very careful look at ourselves and the beliefs that we hold and the beliefs that hold us back. Can you speak to that?

Speaker 2: 14:18

It's so important. You know, when I'm asked the question well, what are some of the things that we can do to counter ageism and gendered ageism? I said, well, the very first step is to look at yourself. And, jane, this was such an eye-opener for me because, you know, here I am writing this book on gendered ageism and as I started to dig under the covers of my own beliefs, I realized, whoa, wait a minute, you're pretty ageist.

Speaker 2: 14:49

You know, ageism is so ingrained in our society that we don't understand how we have internalized a lot of it and what appears to be maybe a joke or a compliment or just seemingly innocuous things, are really ageist and we go along with it and we kind of laugh and we say, oh yeah, but in reality, what's important to do is not only identify those, but how those particular beliefs can end up holding us back and preventing us from reaching our full potential. And in the book I talk about the self-fulfilling prophecies that we have. So, for instance, if we believe we're too old to be promoted and we really believe it at a certain age, then we're not going to do the kinds of things that we need to do to grab the attention of people who have power over our career, who could promote us, who could help us get special assignments and more visibility. So we're not raising our hand, we're not sharing new ideas, we're not volunteering for special projects, we're not doing the kinds of things that will help us get promoted, because we believe we're too old anyway.

Speaker 1: 16:12

So these are the kinds of things that we need to be very aware of, because these beliefs sabotage us and it's interesting because I think we Forget about the power and the influence that we can have with younger women in our office, in the workplace, if we don't see ourselves as invisible, but rather strong, powerful, wise. And when you get, it seems to me, when you're young, they think you're too young and you're just in a beginning position. She's so cute and you know she's not gonna be able to work hard. And then, middle-aged, oh boy, she's gonna start a family and she's probably gonna quit, or she wants to work part-time. And then by the time we get older, it's okay, nobody's listening to us, nobody's Acknowledging us, and yet you say, damn it, that doesn't have to be so true and there was a recent article in Harvard Business Review that Validates all of the research that I did about a year and a half ago.

Speaker 2: 17:24

that shows that Gendered ageism affects women at every stage of their career. My research showed that 77% of women under 35 experienced it and, yeah, they look too young, they're not, that they don't have the experience, they're not necessarily valuable, their opinions aren't really acknowledged and they're not invited to key meetings, and so that's, you know, under 35, very similar to women over 50, 54, where 88% of the women that I surveyed said that they experience Similar things where they're evaluated on their looks. They're considered not valuable or competent anymore because now they've got too much experience. And then, as he brought up as well, jane, women who supposedly are at the peak of their career around 40 35 to 40 suffer from Gendered ageism as well 60% of the women I interviewed and that has to do with perhaps the decision to have a family and not considered to be leadership material anymore, having to take the time off, opt out and then coming back in and not being able to Maintain the same status. So we do feel it at every age, unfortunately and how do we get around these roadblocks?

Speaker 1: 18:57

again, obviously, the importance of female mentors comes into play, the importance of accepting our power and feeling comfortable expressing our feelings and asking questions and then Adding to the conversation. I'm just free, willing right now. I've actually Very rarely was in the corporate world, so I'm just kind of outside looking in and just Supposing and then talking to people like you who deal with this on a daily basis. But it sounds like a real conundrum and I'm just you know how the hell do you get out of this?

Speaker 2: 19:39

Well, I think it goes back to the advice I gave initially, which is pay attention. So if you're a young woman entering the workplace, you need to be aware of potential roadblocks coming up and act accordingly. Don't just say, oh well, I'm doing really well, you know, I'm 37 years old, I'm getting all these promotions, I'm doing well, without looking at your entire career trajectory and saying, well, I need to make sure that I position myself as a woman who has potential, even though I may choose to be another, even though I may show visible signs of aging. And in my book Not Done Yet, I give some very practical advice on things that you can do to stay marketable. But the important thing is you need to be aware that you need to work to stay marketable and that these things may, and most likely will, affect you at some point in your career. So it's kind of like being a girl scout.

Speaker 1: 20:44

I forget what the oh, be prepared, yeah, be prepared, or it's boy scouts or somebody scouts. But that's kind of what you're talking about to pay attention and to know what's ahead. Because I know in one of the articles you wrote for Forbescom, you mentioned a very startling and disappointing number, which is that women run 10.4% of the top companies in the United States. The last time I checked, I think we comprise we make up what 51% of the general population. So I guess there's some promise in that number, but not a lot.

Speaker 2: 21:29

And, by the way, that is an achievement that we have not previously. We haven't reached that number before, so it's a work in progress.

Speaker 1: 21:41

I see, definitely. Well, I would love you to tell listeners where they can find you, where they can get more information about your coaching, for example, just by the by. Do you work only in person or do you work virtually as well?

Speaker 2: 22:00

These days it's all virtual and I have clients from all over the world. So one thing about Zoom as long as you can manage the time zone difference, there's no limit to it. Zoom works really well. You can learn about all of my services on my website, bonniemarkersleadershipcom. It has information about both my books. It has information about my podcast there's an application if you're interested in being a guest for my podcast, as well as some free resources so you can download a free copy of a political skill assessment which will help you figure out where you need to perhaps spend more of your energy around promoting yourself or networking or understanding the politics. There's a book discussion guide for not done yet, which will stimulate conversation for your book club or with your friends about some of the experiences that perhaps you're having around aging and how you personally feel about it.

Speaker 1: 23:10

Experiences around aging. Wow, what an interesting concept. Well, it has been really good talking with you. I know we could go on and chat for many more hours, for sure, but unfortunately this is podcasting and listeners have only a certain amount of patience to listen, so we're trying to keep it within those parameters. But I thank you so much and, yeah, everybody, let's get some coaching here and let's understand what it is we do to ourselves to perpetuate gendered ageism. Thank you, bonnie, thank you Jane, thank you for joining me on this episode of Older Women and Friends and, speaking of friends, please tell yours about this podcast and if you have any suggestions for future episodes or guests or anything else you'd like to share, go to speakpipecom, that's S-P-E-A-K-P-I-P-E dot com. Forward slash older women and friends. You can send me an audio message or respond to one of mine, because it is your feedback that drives this podcast. Until next time, ok.