Friendships That No Longer Work & What To Do About Them with Jan Yager

Speaker 1: 0:06

Do you feel overlooked and invisible because you're an older woman? Have you had those age jump days when you look in the mirror and swear that you're looking at your mother? Do you feel the clock ticking and wonder whether you have enough time to check off all the items on your bucket list? Hello, I'm Jane Leder and I'm the host of Older Women and Friends, a podcast about and four older women that kick stereotypes to the curb. We older women are the keepers of stories, and guests on Older Women and Friends share their stories about love, loss, dreams, friendships. But let's not kid ourselves Aging can be a messy, complex affair. But older women have been around the block a few times and learned a thing or two, and this podcast celebrates their lessons. So put in your earbuds and join me on Older Women and Friends.

Speaker 1: 1:13

You've heard a lot from guests on Older Women and Friends about the importance of friendships as we age, and many listeners say they understand the value of having friends, but they don't have a clue as to where to find them.

Speaker 1: 1:29

Experts' suggestions have ranged from taking a class to joining a book club or volunteering for a political candidate. But with all the talk about friendships, we don't hear much about what to do when a friendship betrays, abandons or wounds us, or what to do when we decide that a friendship is not worth maintaining. Jan Jager, today's guest, has a lot to say about friendships that hurt and about valuable friendships that enrich our lives. Jan is a sociologist, professor and the award-winning author of a slew of books, including Friendships, the Power of Friendship and how it Shapes Our Lives, and her follow-up book, when Friendship Hurts. All of us have experienced a toxic friendship and most of us have bungled through, dealing with our hurt and wish we could have a do-over, and many of us have worked to end a friendship but didn't know how to do that without feeling guilty or making an uncomfortable situation much worse. Breaking up is hard to do, so I'm anxious to hear what Jan has to say. Jan, welcome to older women and friends Great to be here.

Speaker 1: 2:57

Well, I would like to first know what put you on the path to think about and research and write about friendship. Was there a seminal event in your life? Well, Jan.

Speaker 2: 3:13

Now we're going back to the late 70s and I was a single woman. I was actually researching a book on single in America for Athenaeum at the time and my sister was happily married. A lot of my friends were happily married. I was divorced at that point in my early 20s and I didn't know if I'd ever find Mr Right. So I realized that for me friendship might be it and I didn't really understand it. I wanted to know could it give me everything I needed and how would I go about that? So for my dissertation for sociology I actually chose friendship, and back in those days sociologists were mostly looking at parenting and work relations, and to study friendship intensively was quite innovative and eye-opening, and I've studied other topics, but friendship has just keep. I keep coming back to it.

Speaker 1: 4:19

And I know and we'll talk about this in greater depth, but I know it seemed as if you switched your focus and you wrote about friendship and all that's good about it, and then you began to write about hurtful or ended friendships. And I've done some reading, but I'd like you to explain please how you made that shift and why.

Speaker 2: 4:45

Sure Well, my book Friends' Shifts, which I actually had to publish through my own company because I got over a hundred rejections and the academic publisher said it was too popular and the popular publisher said it was too academic. But what I found when I did talks on it, I remember in Evanston, illinois, at a bookstore, a man came up to me at the end of the talk and in a hushed voice, with great embarrassment, he said I have a friendship that ended and it was almost like he was admitting to this horrific crime and that was happening more and more. This woman contacted me and she said when I was 12, a friend of mine called me and wrote down a word that she considered me and it was a horrible word and I don't even use the word in my book, but she allowed me anonymously to share the anecdote. And what got me was this woman was in her early 30s, she was married with two teenage sons and she said I never again allowed myself to have a friend.

Speaker 2: 6:10

And I knew I was onto something because and by the way, my more recent book, putting when Friendship Hurts to Work is an outgrowth of that book for Simon and Schuster when friendship hurts, because I realized there was no work for people who are dealing with problematical friendships, but I even went out of my way in the back of the workbook I have in the subtitle and in the book, plus help in finding and keeping good friends, and that's really been a theme throughout my work. And it's interesting you said about me going from friendships and positive friendships to negative friends and then back again to negative friends, and I'm on the verge of finishing celebrating friends and friendship, which is again a schuster positive.

Speaker 1: 7:07

You're going to get us dizzy. And just so you know, I happen to live in Evanston. Wow. That's a really good one, just a small, small word, a world, world Right. I read a study which said, or found, that middle-aged women who had three or more friends tended to have higher levels of overall life satisfaction. And I guess my question is how many good friends does a person need?

Speaker 2: 7:46

Well, when I went to my friend from childhood when her dad passed away. I went to the funeral and she grabbed my hand. We had been friends from literally six months of age. We lived next door in Queens, new York, on a hundred foot plot of land, so we were literally in each other's lives. And she grabbed my hand and she said you don't need a lot of friends, just one or two good ones. And I think that really sums it up.

Speaker 2: 8:22

Now, on the other hand, because I do in all my work, divide friendship into three categories best, close and casual. So, even though my research found most people have one to two best friends, four to six close friends and it used to be 10 to 20 casual friends, but now it's more like you know 35, 50, 75, because of Facebook and social media. So, even though the study you showed you know one to three good friends, they're happier. But hey, you know, if you want to have a birthday party, you'd better have that 10 to 20 casual friends, or it's not going to be a party, it's going to be more like a little coffee or coffee clutch. So what I'm saying is that you've got to keep replenishing that network for various reasons, you know, not just passing away moving how many people are in this stage in life? I remember now you know I'm older, but 20 years ago, when my mother was where I am now, all of her friends were relocating to where their children were.

Speaker 1: 9:34

Yeah, it's tough. I was actually taking a shot at the workbook the other day which, by the way, I highly recommend but I got really sad because it was talking about best friends good friends, casual friends and I've got tons of acquaintances and I do think I have a group of close friends, but when it came to a best friend, I have one and if I count my sister, I have two, and I'm starting to feel what's wrong with me. You know why don't I have more friends? But exactly what you said, I have friends who have passed away, I have friends who have moved and that circle seems to be closing and becoming smaller and smaller. So I'm all ears when it comes to what can we do? What can we do as older women? I'm 78, so I've gotten you beat by three years and I get it.

Speaker 2: 10:39

First of all, as you know, most people have one to two best friends, so you're in the average area oh yeah, now don't feel bad because a best friend you know Montaigne, the great French essayist.

Speaker 2: 10:51

He said it well hundreds of years ago. You know, if you have more than even one best friend, if they both need you, who do you go to, you know? So it's okay if you only have one or two, but replenishing is very important. And it's not just you know we talked about passing away and moving away, but also new interests. You know, I'm still working, you know, probably harder and more than I have in many, many years, and I love my retired friends, but they're in a different space than I am. So, making new friends who are still working and even in my age group or younger I'm open to older also, you know, and friends give us so much.

Speaker 2: 11:42

And also, if you meet people at this stage in your life, it's fun that they don't have that history. I call the history friends, nostalgia, friends, and that's great. But isn't it fun to meet someone who sees you where you are now? Oh, wow, you know, look at you now. So so it's. And what I love about friendship is that you can literally, you know, talk to someone in the supermarket and if you meet after that for a cup of coffee and you like each other, it can grow into a friendship. You don't have to sign a legal document. You don't have to worry about the divorce rate among friends. You know.

Speaker 1: 12:27

Well, I'd like to talk about two things that came to mind while you were speaking. The first one is what makes a good friend.

Speaker 2: 12:37

Well, it's interesting. I, you know, definitely share in. Putting one friendship hurts. You know suggestions about what do you need in a friend? I mean, there are certain basic things we want honesty. Honest here, right on page 11 of the print version honesty, trust, confidentiality, empathy, care, love, commonality, being kindred spirits, sharing activities, shared values, liking each other, respect, reciprocity, listening, having a positive connection. So you know you don't have to have all of that, but you know, and my research has found, that shared values is the number one predictor of longevity in a friendship.

Speaker 1: 13:31

Well, let's talk about how we decide whether or not to break up with a friend or to try to work it out. I mean, this is sounding so much like a marriage on the verge of separation. You know, it's fascinating to me, but I've certainly had relationships and, as I said in the introduction, I would propose that most of us, if not all of us, have had a relationship where the shared values are now no longer shared. And how do we decide whether or not we need to break up?

Speaker 2: 14:18

Sure, yeah, no. That's definitely something that I go into in putting, when friendship hurts, to work, self quizzes. You know, ask yourself. You know, what am I getting out of this friendship? You know, and page 25, I have affirmations. Affirmation number 65 from one of my books 365 daily affirmations for friendship. I am deserving of friends who cherish and appreciate me.

Speaker 2: 14:49

So does your friend do that? Or do you feel put down? Do you feel, when you get off the phone or after you see a text from the friend, rather than feeling uplifted and positive, do you feel more downtrodden? Do people say to you are you really so? And so's friend? You know, not in a way that's being helpful in terms, not in a jealous way, like I can't believe she's your friend. You know why do you need her? You only need me, but more out of concern. So you know there are warning signs, but that doesn't mean if someone's having a tough time you abandon them. You know that's a whole other issue that you know we stand by our friends. But you have to be careful.

Speaker 2: 15:41

For my dissertation, even though it was focused on women's friendships, I did a lot of interviews with men as well, and one man who was a very successful scientist in Boston and he shared with me that he had to painfully give up a friend in middle school Because the friend when they would go to this store. He got into a bad, compulsive stealing habit and he just knew that it was a matter of time before his friend was going to get arrested and if he was still with him it would probably bring him into it. And all these years later, 15, 20 years later, he still felt sad that he had to go to the store he had to make that difficult choice.

Speaker 1: 16:34

It's really interesting how long these hurts questions no longer. Shared values stay with us, but you're talking about an adult and yet he still feels the same way. Okay, so if we have a friendship that's on the rocks, but we've decided that we want to stick with it, how do you suggest we go about that? Is it all about honesty? Is it about saying I feel fill in the blank. I feel that I'm doing more work in this relationship than you are. What do we do? How do we salvage these connections?

Speaker 2: 17:21

Sure. Well, in Chapter 5 of putting when friendship hurts to work the workbook on, in Part 3, coping can this friendship be saved? So throughout the workbook are activities and exercises. So the very first activity is coping considerations and you have to ask yourself how do you know whether friendship is worth saving? So you need to ask yourself that question because it's not going to be an easy thing to do, it's going to take effort. And also you have to remember we're talking mostly about the individual thinking about ending the friendship. Sometimes the other friend wants to end it, so you can't force someone to want to be in the friendship. So on page 44, I actually have a little I love lists, right. So it says can this friendship be saved?

Speaker 2: 18:29

On the left side, I ask you to list seven positive things about your friend On the right side, I ask you to list seven shortcomings. Now, if there's nothing on the left side, you have your answer. But if there's enough on the left side that, let's say the shortcoming is she doesn't return my texts in a timely manner. So you say to yourself well, is this a pattern? Is it just me? Can I live with it? Is there enough on the left side to make it okay that I'll just find a way of coping with it.

Speaker 2: 19:13

And it's very important to know who you're dealing with. Jane, some people are great at I don't like to call it criticism, let's call it feedback Some people are great, you know, hey, so and so I love you. You're my friend, I've been friends for years. But can you just respond to my text in 48 hours? I get worried Maybe something bad happened to you. And that friend says oh, I'm so glad you told me that. I don't realize I do that. I'm so busy and the friendship gets better. Another friend can't handle it, thank you for telling me. Never wants to talk to the person again.

Speaker 2: 19:58

So you have to know who you're dealing with, because not all coping strategies are going to work with everyone. Sometimes you just have to let it ride. Also, there's a difference between honesty and tech. A lot of people say I want you to tell me what you really think, but you can say it in a way that's tactful rather than hurtful. Say number four in that section saying I'm sorry. Okay, now, what I was telling someone recently is that in all these years of and I'm talking decades of friendship research as well as friendship coaching, I can count on one hand the number of people who have told me I need to be a better friend. Everyone, except for those five people, have said my friend does this. I can't believe this, so the saying I'm sorry is not a small thing.

Speaker 1: 21:06

Well, when we have that list of the pros and the cons, or the good things and the bad things and I've made some of those what happens if that one side of the pros is empty or sorely short? So the question is okay, when the relationship, the friendship we determined is not worth saving, how the hell do we get out of it, still respecting the other person's feelings?

Speaker 2: 21:41

Well, that's interesting because if you go to YouTube and put in Jan Jäger, you'll see a two or three minute really nice montage of my author tour for when friendship hurts in Australia and New Zealand. My husband did the video. At the end of the video is an interview with me from New Zealand, interview of New Zealand television. What I shared in that interview and it always makes me, if you don't record these things, it's like really I can't believe that what I share is that a woman in an interview shared with me that she didn't have a birthday party because she didn't want to deal with not inviting a particular friend. So rather than confront the friend that the friendship was over, she simply didn't have the party.

Speaker 2: 22:35

So it's not an easy thing to do. In most cases people fortunately, as we talked about right at the get-go have more than one friend. So when you see someone pulling away, you tend to gravitate to the friends that are there for you. People get hints. That's why if you're really busy, you have to say to someone I'm busy, I'm not trying to wind down or end our friendship. So most people will get the hint. They'll be pulled towards the positive other friendships in their life.

Speaker 2: 23:12

You have to decide. If you want to say something, probably the safest way to talk about it is to say it's not similar to what you'd say in a marriage breaking up. It's not you, it's not me, it's the way we currently interact. That isn't working. You might even want to soften the blow by saying let's revisit this down the road. It could be something temporary. Possibly she's dating someone who you can't stand, or who can't stand you. There's all sorts of things. But you have to decide if you want to discuss it or not, if you want to revisit it down the road or not. Unfortunately, there's no simple. This is the cure all and the formula for handling every situation.

Speaker 1: 24:10

I have one last question. We could go on forever, but we have a time constraint, and this is something that is very interesting to me. Having written books about the relationship, for example, between brothers and sisters, I'm interested in knowing how our early family relationships influence our friendships. What is it that we learn, or we don't learn, in childhood? That impacts the people that we choose and the kinds of relationships that we have.

Speaker 2: 24:48

Yes, no, that's such a great question because I have chapter four. It's all in the family. I begin the chapter with a picture of my grandfather, my father at the age of 10 and his younger brother at the age of five. In writing the chapter, I came in touch with the fact that my father only had one close friend in his whole life when he was five. His mother, his biological mother, died. Right after she died he formed a friendship with Dave Schaefer. That was a really strong, powerful bond. His whole life he lived to 80. So I always in doing the chapter I realized I think that connection was a substitute for his lost mother. And one of the things that I found so interesting in writing this chapter was activity number four Hidden messages.

Speaker 2: 25:52

If people just read this, they're going to change their whole perspective on friendship. Consider your own childhood. Were there any conflicting or hidden messages about friendship or how to get along with peers that may still be influencing you now? So I asked the reader your parents' conscious message, then your parents' unconscious or conflicting or hidden message. So let's say a parent says you need friends, friends are important, and then the unconscious, conflicting or hidden messages you never in your whole childhood saw your parents go out with a friend and just have a cup of coffee and talk about life. So you know, so it's, you know. Think about those early roots. Did your siblings mistreat you? So you unconsciously pick friends who mistreat you. And then you are shocked that the conscious you says I don't like this, I want to be treated well by a friend. But the unconscious you that hasn't worked it through through either self therapy or friendship coach or a licensed counselor is pulled to that negativity. So your early childhood relationships are very important, you know it's fascinating.

Speaker 1: 27:24

I love looking at childhoods as monitor of how we are going to behave, feel and think as we age. I'd love to continue this. Maybe we'll have a chance to do that at another time, but I'd like you to let listeners know where they can find out more about you, and you've talked a lot about the workbook, so if you could give us that title again, is there currently in you know production hasn't already been published where?

Speaker 2: 27:59

it's available now. It's just out putting. When friendship hurts to work is the main title, and it has a long subtitle Exercises and activities to deal with friends who betray, abandon or wound you, plus help in finding and keeping good friends.

Speaker 1: 28:22

Sounds. I've already started to work the workbook people and it's it's a lot of food for thought, I can tell you that. So they have to work book. I'm assuming that your other books are available through any online site or many.

Speaker 2: 28:40

Definitely. And also, you know, I invite your listeners to go to my website, drjanjagercom. They'll find many of my books highlighted on the homepage. They'll also find my blog. They can contact me through the contact us and become part of my mailing list and sign up for my newsletter, which I will someday release.

Speaker 1: 29:10

I get it. We're busy. We can't maintain all of these efforts simultaneously. I want to thank you so much and hope that you've enjoyed this conversation as much as I have. It was terrific speaking with you. I hope listeners will check out some of the books and the workbook and other things by Jan and perhaps if they have questions if you have questions you can funnel them to me and perhaps we'll have Jan back again. Thank you so much. Thank you, jane, take care. Thank you so much for joining me on this episode of Older Women and Friends. Speaking of friends, please tell yours about this podcast and if you'd like to contact me with comments or suggestions, you can email me at olderwomenandfriendspodcastatgmailcom. And while you're at it, please take a few minutes to write a review. It's really easy Go to Apple Podcasts, type in older women and friends, scroll down the page and click on Reviews. Until next time.