The Long Distance Grandparent with Kerry Byrne

Speaker 1: 0:05

Hi, I'm Jane Leder, host of Older Women and Friends. You know, when it comes right down to it, I find aging to be a complex affair Highs, lows and everything in between but as I see it, the one constant is change, and the key is how we adjust, how we transition. Do we start a new career, write that book we've had rolling around in our heads for years, move to warmer climes to be near our grandchildren, continue teaching or researching or coaching other women, or do we just hang out, travel and have a good time? The guests on Older Women and Friends have many stories to tell, to share, about what they've been up to and what they've learned along the way. So turn up the volume and join me on Older Women and Friends.

Speaker 1: 1:15

One of the surprises of hosting this podcast has been how often grandmothers become the topic of conversation about things that have nothing to do with the topic of the day, and guests have talked so lovingly of the importance that, in this case, a grandmother played and the ways in which she created a loving, supported space, or how she served as a counterpoint to parents who were a bit different than she is, and I've been so taken with this I often then I remembered my mother's story, who told me multiple times Jane, I never would have made it if it hadn't been for Jenny, I just couldn't have done it.

Speaker 1: 2:08

So I get this feedback regularly, and that is why today's guest, carrie Byrne, is here. She is the founder of the Long Distance Grandparent, which is a social media community, and I was curious where that name came from, and I'm going to let her tell her own story. But I did come across a statistic. It's all the way from 2019. So, carrie, you can correct me or let me know if there's something more current, but this study said that there are more than half of grandparents in the United States who live more than 200 miles away from their grandchildren, so hence the term long distance grandparenting. So that's where Carrie comes into the story. Carrie, welcome to Older Women and Friends.

Speaker 2: 3:06

Thank you, truly delighted to be here and to have this conversation today.

Speaker 1: 3:11

Can you tell me a little bit about your own childhood and whether or not you had a relationship with a special grandparent?

Speaker 2: 3:18

Well, yes, and I think, as is often the case for people that study and spend a lifetime looking at research around aging or issues related to aging, they'll often say or realize at some point that it was because of a relationship that they had with a grandparent.

Speaker 2: 3:37

That was quite impactful and I was quite close to my maternal grandmother and when I was 13, she was diagnosed with cancer and I was in the room when she took her last breath and that actually shaped me in ways that I didn't understand until decades later and have dealt with.

Speaker 2: 3:58

You know the death of my father and you know other deaths because that experience of her and happy, you know, my grandfather was holding her in his arms and she took her last breath and it wasn't scary and it was a also a moment of women coming together, because my mom was there, my aunt was there, I was there, a lot of the brothers were there, but they left the room and the women stayed in the room, like the women stayed in the room with my grandmother, who we called Pat, because she said at the time that she was too young to be called grandma, and so when I look at some of the sort of self-deprecating behavior around age. It's definitely something that's been passed on through the generations of my family, but, yeah, that was a really influential relationship for me.

Speaker 1: 4:43

And what were some of the qualities of hers or ways in which she was supportive?

Speaker 2: 4:49

Well, she was really funny. She really leaned on comic relief and, funny enough, that's not necessarily something that I do, but my brother does that and so it's helped me to understand and actually most people in my family do where there's always a lot of comic relief and I mean, which, of course, is a great way to cope to some extent. But I just remember a lot of the things like being there. I spent some time with her before she died and of course I was a teenager, but you kind of have these flash moments of you know, watching her play solitaire, or she would make these angel food cakes that today you would be sued, probably if you ever brought them to a birthday party because they had coins in them, the money cakes that we're not allowed to do as parents today, but they would be, you know, wrapped in wax paper and if you got a quarter, that was really special. But just, she had said to me before she died that she wished that she could see me grow up.

Speaker 2: 5:48

And that really stuck with me, that we were able to have that moment where she told me that has, I think, yeah, just really stuck with me over the years Sounds wonderful.

Speaker 1: 6:02

Everybody should be so lucky, and so I guess the next natural question is so you had that experience as a teenager, and then life went on, and so how did you circle back, or how did you follow a certain path or a path to get to where you are now?

Speaker 2: 6:23

or a path to get to where you are now. Well, I started university very convinced that I was going to be a child psychologist, and so I TA'd for the head of the department who taught the child development course, and I spent a few years convinced that I would be still in child development. But in my first year I took a course, and it was a night course that happened to fit with my schedule and it's the only reason that I took it. It was at 7 o'clock on a Wednesday night and it was called gerontology and I had no real idea of what it is, but it said it was the study of the aging population and I thought, oh, that looks interesting, because I really love the idea of intergenerational therapy, which involved children and older adults, and I was quite a keener here for university, and so they gave the professors, offered some bonus points for those who would volunteer in a retirement home, and because I had and this is now, this is over 25 years ago now so I had the psychology background, and so they put me in with a woman who actually had been experiencing domestic abuse with her partner and they were in this retirement home together and he had Alzheimer's and she had this newfound freedom and I used to pick her up. We would get into my little Dodge Colt, you know, two-door drive, basically across the street to the shopping center. Against all rules now that would need to be followed around. Insurance, like you, probably would not be allowed to do that. But she, understanding her story, and working with older adults through that volunteer experience, just really changed everything for me.

Speaker 2: 7:57

And then I spent the next I, you know, my master's was focused on older adults, my PhD was focused on older adults and I went on to do a lot of research in the area of family caregiving.

Speaker 2: 8:07

And then I had my own children and I birthed in the process six long distance grandparents.

Speaker 2: 8:13

And that's really where my interest in this connection between grandparents and grandchildren took off. It was through a move that we made from we were in Toronto, still at a distance for everybody, but my husband was transferred to Dubai and so I call this ultra long distance and I really in that moment vowed that I would keep the connection going with, in particular, his grandpa that he had a really special relationship with. I had one son at the time. I had another one when I got to Dubai became an unexpected stay at home mom for a little while, and when I was there, I did something called the Grandparent Interview Project and I interviewed a whole bunch of grandparents who were grandparents to expats and they told me, and shared with me in these interviews, that their biggest worry was that they were not going to know their grandchildren and their grandchildren weren't going to know them. And I knew how possible it was, and so that's really how the Long Distance Grandparent came to be the website, the blogging and my own online community.

Speaker 1: 9:11

Fabulous. I love that you do mention that this all started with an intergenerational relationship with the older woman at the time and, of course, intergenerational friendships are one of the big things going on at the time. And, of course, intergenerational friendships are one of the big things going on at the moment. I mean talking about it and what it can bring to the table. And so, without asking you because I know the answer is, of course, yes Just quickly, what do you think is in it for both sides, for the grandparent and for the younger person, younger woman, man, it doesn't matter. What do both people get out of this, or can they?

Speaker 2: 9:55

Well, it's interesting. You talk about intergenerational friendships and I know that in general intergenerational programming is popular and we know that it's a way to fight ageism. But I always look at the connection between generations within families because my strong belief is that if we can start to affect how this happens within families, that then trickles out, because of course, your family's a microcosm oftentimes of what's going on more broadly in your communities, in your workplace, in society at large. So one of the biggest impacts I think for especially an older women audience, is that it influences ageism and we know that if grandparents and grandchildren have high quality relationships, that the children as young as preschool age are less likely to have ageist views of older adults. And one of the first older people that most kids experience or have a relationship with is a grandparent, not always or a great aunt or a great uncle and these relationships my own children have important relationships with great aunts and great uncles and it really does make a difference when it comes to ageism.

Speaker 2: 11:08

But I think also we are always surprised by they're always surprised by the emotion that they feel in becoming a grandparent. So there are some grandparents who are know they're going to be excited and know they're going to be over the moon. And then there are other grandparents who are very and I talk to lots of grandparents. I've interviewed hundreds and worked with thousands, and so you know they are kind of coolest cucumbers about becoming a grandmother, and they might be 55 in their own job still, and then this little human shows up. All bets are off and they're frankly surprised by you know the amount of joy that they feel, and so I think there's a lot of joy to be had in these relationships, provided you know we also need to rely on the middle generation, my generation of parents, to facilitate that connection. And so I think it's. I think it, you know, is influential for kids, parents and grandparents if the relationship plays out in a positive way.

Speaker 1: 12:26

Well, let's talk about the demographics a bit. So is there an average age at which a woman becomes a grandmother in the United States?

Speaker 2: 12:36

Yeah, it's around 50 years old. You know, people are really surprised by that. I think it's 51 or two in Canada. I'm in Canada, oh, that's right, sorry, no, it's fine. I mean, there are over 70 million grandparents in the US, and so the huge majority of grandparents that I work with are actually in the US, though I work with grandparents all over the world, but yeah, it's about 50. And your stat, the 2019.

Speaker 1: 13:01

AARP.

Speaker 2: 13:08

Yeah, yeah, that is really the only information that we have about nationally, about long distance grandparents.

Speaker 1: 13:11

And what about grandmothers? Are the majority of them still working? I mean, if you're talking about women at 50 or 51, I have to assume that a chunk of them are still holding down jobs. Yes, and I cannot remember.

Speaker 2: 13:26

I cannot remember the number right now, but there is data about this and it is higher than you would think. I think it's four out of 10 grandparents are still employed. So to your listeners, don't quote me on that, but it is somewhere.

Speaker 1: 13:41

Okay, if you guys can Google it and let me know. Well, let's talk about long-distance grandparenting. You discussed how that became a passion of yours and it's interesting. I am not a grandmother, sadly. I have one son who is still solo, so it looks like I'm going to have to wait until next time around. But I am an observer of many neighbors and friends who are grandparents, and I have someone living in the area and they have one, two grandkids who live within five minutes, and then they have a newer grandson who lives across the country, and I'm so curious, I'm just wondering, because they put so much time and energy into the two kids that are close by and I'm thinking, wow, the number three is really losing out. Or I wonder if those grandparents feel guilty that they're not giving as much to the one who lives across the country. Any thoughts about that?

Speaker 2: 14:49

A couple. I think it is a different scenario when you have local grandchildren and distance grandchildren, and certainly I hear from grandparents who feel like you know, I should do more for the long-distance grandchildren but it is harder and it's more work, right, it takes more effort versus the local situation where they're popping in on Sundays, you know, for pancakes. And so I I hear from people who just are signed up for my free weekly newsletter and they'll come back and say oh, I so appreciate your newsletter because it reminds me to do something, because I think there's spontaneous connection. That happens with FaceTime.

Speaker 2: 15:28

You know various technology, but there are so many things that long-distance grandparents can do to be more intentional, and so you know, I always recommend that grandparents, you know they need to be intentional because, of course, proximity to your grandchild is a risk factor to not having a close relationship. So this is what the research tells us is that if you live far away I think that there are no really recent studies I think that will change because of two things One, just the nature of communication and virtual communication that we can now have, and I think too that grandparents are more intentional about their role. And I think, realizing that from a distance that you really have to be more intentional. So I get to work with, honest to goodness, the cream of the crop of grandparents who are really committed to doing this, and so I always say on Sundays, when you might go to a soccer practice if you were local, you know, sit down during a certain set time on a Sunday morning and write out, you know, a beautiful letter to your grandchild or collect some jokes about soccer for them that you're going to tell them and send in a letter Like when you can't be in the relationship, work on the relationship.

Speaker 2: 16:40

But I mean, there's no doubt about it, it is tough being a long distance grandparent emotionally and it is easier to connect with your local grandchildren. But of course, you know, we always think the grass is greener on the other side. But local grandparents sometimes have the issue of needing to provide too much child care or not. You know, having to set their own boundaries in the relationship. That long distance grandparents sometimes feel like they wish they had that problem.

Speaker 1: 17:07

But I think grandparenting is tough all around, just like mothering or, you know, I mean, I think, any role that involves a relationship, which is most roles I don't know, I think relationships are tricky and complex and can become strained and distance can really play into that and you've mentioned a few that grandparents, long distance grandparents and specifically in this situation can do ways in which they need to plan, they need to be organized, and then where do they go from there?

Speaker 2: 18:12

Like in the planning and organizing. Yeah well, I have this framework that I teach to grandparents and it's called your Grand Path to Connection and I like alliteration. So just get ready because there's a lot of P's coming. But it is plan, partner, prepare, play and preserve. I call them connection habits. So what I shared with you about sitting down on a Sunday morning at 10 o'clock with your coffee, or 6 am if you're an early bird, you know, sitting down with your coffee or your tea and having this connection habit where you either look for ways to connect you write something, get your mail ready, maybe on the 15th of every month, that's when you send mail out to your long distance grandchild, because mail, like the mailbox is your, is the powerhouse of the long distance grandparent.

Speaker 2: 18:45

We have school-aged children who are actually kind of zoomed out from the pandemic still, and so not always necessarily wanting to be on video chats, but you will be the only person showing up in their mailbox, and so I think it's a really important place to be. One of the things to do is to just and I share this that the number one secret to long-distance grandparenting is to sweat the small stuff, and so there was a book I read so many years ago called Don't Sweat the Small Stuff, and I think it's the opposite is true for a long-distance grandparent. I don't mean emotionally, I mean being a bit of a grand detective. What are they into? What are their interests?

Speaker 2: 19:44

The research that we have about long distance grandparenting the biggest barrier is that grandparents will say that they don't know what their grandchild is got. A grandchild who loves baseball? You know, maybe they love a certain team. Figure out what the scores were so that you can talk to them about that baseball game. You know, maybe you really don't love or have any interest in video games, but if you have, you know, an eight-year-old grandson, minecraft is probably pretty top of mind, and so just look up Minecraft 101, come up with a couple of funny would you rather questions. So knowing those small details about any child can help you to really have more meaningful conversation, be a little bit playful, and these things really do nurture trust with kids from a distance and then make these in-person moments even better.

Speaker 1: 20:30

You know it's interesting because I think there is a real emotional complexity to becoming and being a grandparent and I wonder if you could talk about that.

Speaker 2: 20:42

Yeah, for long distance grandparents it's, I mean, I think, for all grandparents. Becoming a grandparent and engaging in this role of being a grandparent can happen alongside other major life transitions, and that just makes it complex. So you might be, and are very likely to be, becoming a grandparent, being a grandparent at the same time that you are caring for either your own parents, a spouse, a sibling for many people, even still children who are at home, who have not left yet, or who are in college and living with you, and so you have college-age children living with you and you have a two-year-old granddaughter across the country or in a different continent, and so you're college-age children living with you and you have a two-year-old granddaughter across the country or in a different continent, and so you're balancing a lot of different things. For older grandparents, this can also be a time when you are wrapping your mind around arthritis or different things that can happen and different things that happen in your body and your mind at the same time. So just really aging and grandparenting and how those two things intersect, and so for long distance grandparents, then you have this added layer of distance because you need to be able to travel, you need to be able to get there. You need to be able to have enough money to get there.

Speaker 2: 21:57

There are many different things that can happen for long distance grandparents around. First of all, relationships are tricky and I said that earlier because I see this a lot that you know there can be strain in a relationship and it's more difficult to talk about it, to find space to talk about it, when you only see each other twice a year, three times a year. You want to focus on the happy moments and not necessarily focus on some of the strain in the relationship. Or even for grandparents and we've just talked about this in the Long Distance Grandparents Society, which is my online membership program we spend a lot of time talking about legacy and how do you have these conversations with your adult children, about even what you want for your funeral, and that these conversations need to start happening much earlier. And how do you do this when you're long distance and you're just trying to grab onto the pieces of joy? I think, jane, for long distance grandparents, you know, the biggest thing that I hear and the biggest emotion is grief and sadness.

Speaker 1: 22:59

Wow. So the fact that they can't be there and that their relationship is maybe, as you said, two or three visits a year, and are we talking? So their grief, their sadness at not being able to be more involved and invested in their grandchildren's lives?

Speaker 2: 23:16

Yeah, I think it's just. It's about reconciling what they thought their relationship would look like versus what it now looks like. When people first become a grandparent. And if you are becoming a long distance grandparent, there's this both and kind of thing that happens. Where you feel so joyful you're going to be a grandparent, you feel really let down and sad because and it's an eight hour flight to go and see them or a three hour drive or whatever that might be For people who've had grandchildren living locally. This is an extra tough transition for people If they've been living locally and then the grandchildren are leaving and moving away.

Speaker 2: 23:55

Deep sadness because you are mourning the loss of the relationship that you had, that you got to enjoy fully with them, and it looks different. So the grandparents that I work with we spend quite a bit of time not for everyone, because, like everything, not everything applies to everyone. Some people just really get on with it in terms of they just want ideas. Give me the ideas, I'm going to connect, I'm going to be like the best grandparent and other people. It's only when somebody else brings up the grief and the sadness that they actually realize. That's what I'm feeling Like. That's what this kind of deep, heavy feeling is because it's a bit like disenfranchised grief, isn't it? Like where it's not really accepted? Like what do you mean? You're grieving as a grandparent, like no one died, everything's fine, but you're grieving the loss of what you wanted the relationship to look like and that they are not physically present.

Speaker 1: 24:52

They're just psychologically present and emotionally present. Very sad long-distance grandparent. Supposed to get back on track and not bury the sadness but acknowledge it, work with it and then hopefully move on, possibly with a revised plan, a revised vision of how the relationship is going to work.

Speaker 2: 25:17

Yeah, well, this is really going to depend on who you are as a person in terms past, and I know grandparents who have sought therapy for this because they don't want to burden their own adult children with their grief, because their own adult children feel guilty already for not living close to them or are just so stressed out about the move that they're making, and so grandparents need to take it upon themselves to cope with their own emotions that they're feeling, so that they can show up as mom, show up as grandma. I think knowing that you're not alone sometimes is actually the first step. Seeking out community, other grandparents and other long distance grandparents who feel this way is really powerful in terms of feeling understood. And then I'm always a believer in like affirmation, visualization, and so that's what I mean. If you are somebody where that you know is something that resonates for you, you know, then come up with your own affirmations about you can have a beautiful relationship with your grandchild.

Speaker 1: 26:35

And you know it's interesting in my age group so many grandparents are actually moving to be closer to their kids and their grandkids, so there seems to be this migration. I can think of three friends just right now who have moved or are in the process of moving for the express sole reason of wanting to be close to their grandparents. However, I wonder what some of the challenges are when they are suddenly no longer a long distance grandparent but somebody who is is there, hello and I just can envision that there are some probably rules of the road in terms of how these grandparents might approach this change in the family structure.

Speaker 2: 27:25

Yeah, and the grandparents that I've worked with and I've seen grandparents do this and recommend it to one another is that if you can try living temporarily close to them, so spending Airbnb sometimes for long-term rentals you can get, or house swaps, those types of things so go and spend a few months and see what you I mean A see what you think of the community and where your grandchildren are at.

Speaker 2: 27:54

I think sometimes you feel like you might be. You know you can be helpful. It just really depends on the age of the grandchildren and what they're into. And you know, because sometimes it's like moms and dads are taxis, right, and so we're just driving our kids to different activities, and so is that something that you want to be able to do, and so I've seen that really work for other grandparents to both decide, yes, we're going to move closer, or actually, no, we're not, we're just going to rent somewhere for a few months a year to be closer to grandchildren during a time that like their summer, for example, so that you can spend that time with them, or different times during the year when the parents have said it works out. So, yeah, but you're right, jane. I mean, I don't think it's. There's always challenges and it is so important to have this open communication between generations and to make sure that everyone is on the same page, especially if you're making a move like that, just really being honest.

Speaker 1: 28:51

Yeah, it sounds like it could be a bit dicey, but I love the idea of just, you know, just renting a short term. I mean, people recommend that in terms of moving period, right, if you're going to move to another state. Maybe we can talk a little bit about the benefits that are associated with emotionally close relationships between grandparents and grandchildren.

Speaker 2: 29:19

One thing to consider is really, you know, what are the things that lead to emotionally close relationships, and so I always talk about how important grandparents are, and we know that it's related to things I mean family storytelling, you have more. It's related to better sorry grandparent-grandchild relationships are related to, you know, better levels of mental health, like lower levels of depression in kids, and these are longitudinal studies and also something called subjective well-being, life satisfaction. There are several studies, and not as many, looking at parents and children, but definitely grandparents and grandchildren, and hopefully we'll see more of those. But I would say that probably it's most impactful around mental health for our kids, and I always say that if we had a vitamin that we could give our children, that would have the same outcomes that the relationship between a grandparent and grandchild had. It would be sold out. It would just be sold out because it does have an influence.

Speaker 2: 30:20

I always look at well, how do we get to that kind of relationship? Because it's not. You know, we are, I think, sometimes misled On social media. We see the, you know, grandmother, grandchild running towards one another, our open, lovely reunion, everybody's all happy. But there was a lot of work that went into that relationship and you know in particular it was.

Speaker 2: 30:44

You know it's quite likely there was a grandmother that was working pretty hard, potentially a mother or father as the partner, because you need to have the parents involved as well. But I think that you know for grandmothers that you know there's a lot of extra work that has to go into it, and some of the research that we know is that things like affectionate communication really strengthen the emotional closeness between grandparents and grandchildren. And so if you are a long distance grandparents, you know, make sure that you are telling your grandchild things like I love you, I miss you, I'm proud of you, I enjoy spending time with you, you're special to me. Those are all ways to communicate affectionately that researchers have found are also related to closer relationships, emotionally close relationships between grandparents and grandchildren as they get older.

Speaker 1: 31:37

And a lot of us have images or experiences at least in my age group with our grandmothers or grandfathers, and we got off on this a little bit earlier. But as we were talking about ageism, as we were talking about the fact that young kids learn stereotypical behavior when they're young, they're so young and yet the images and I know that I'm somewhat guilty of that and yet I am now in that age position, so it's like damn it, you know, we got to get a handle on this. Are you suggesting that, as a grandparent, that we can help establish nonjudgmental visions and stereotypes of grandmothers by being who we are, by being naturally, hopefully, as you said, you know, loving, supportive people who are constants. Everything changes so damn quickly in this life of ours, but there are some constants and one of them is a grandparent.

Speaker 2: 32:45

You know what I'm suggesting for sure is that I mean we know from the research that a relationship between a grandparent and a grandchild is important when it comes to ageism. I mean the World Health Organization's report about global ageism. It was a protective determinant against ageism was a high-quality relationship between grandparents and grandchildren. So I think it is a, you know, a win-win scenario where you get to have and work on and be intentional and mindful about a positive, high quality relationship with your grandchild and also contribute broadly to less ageism, because your grandchild is, you know, the future doctor, the future, you know, architect, the future, whoever you know, whoever it is, it's the work, you know, grandchildren of today are the workforce of the future and grandparents have a huge role to play in making sure that this generation is less ageist and that and they can do that, you know the good news is is that you do that by having a positive relationship which is what you want anyways with your grandchildren.

Speaker 1: 33:50

Well, I think it's a win-win situation that I was able to drag you in here after so many months of trying to get this together. Deeply appreciative. This is extremely informative, and I'd love you to let people know how they can get more information about you, about your community, about other things you offer. I think you mentioned something about a newsletter, or am I misremembering that? I think so, but yeah, if you could let us know now where people can catch up with you.

Speaker 2: 34:27

Yes, so just wwwthelongdistancegrandparentcom. You can find me. Just type in long distance grandparenting and Carrie Byrne and it will come up. You can sign up for my weekly newsletter on the website. You can find out more information about the products and services that I offer for long-distance grandparents. One that is very close to my heart is called the Long-Distance Grandparent Society, otherwise known by members as the LDG Society, shortened because it's so long. But in that particular membership you receive a I call it a digital subscription box, and so I send you research backed ideas every single month, mail to send to your grandchildren. But we also gather as a community, and so have a look around the website. I am very open to receiving any emails from listeners If you need a hand. If I can't help you, then I usually know somebody in the grandparenting space who will be able to, because there are some really great resources that are around for grandparents, in particular in the last decade.

Speaker 1: 35:32

Fabulous. I encourage everyone who's listening to check out some of this information. It's important, it's interesting, it's ultimately very heartwarming and encouraging, and thank you so much for spending time with me and sharing some of your wisdom here on Older Women and Friends, thank you. Thank you for having me Jane.

Speaker 1: 36:00

Thank you for joining me on this episode of Older Women and Friends. And, speaking of friends, please tell yours about this podcast and if you have any suggestions for future episodes or guests or anything else you'd like to share, go to speakpipecom. That's S-P-E-A-K-P-I-P-E dot com. Forward slash older women and friends. You can send me an audio message or respond to one of mine, because it is your feedback that drives this podcast. Until next time, thank you.