Speaker 1: 0:05

Hi, I'm Jane Leder, host of Older Women and Friends. You know, when it comes right down to it, I find aging to be a complex affair Highs, lows and everything in between. But as I see it, the one constant is change, and the key is how we adjust, how we transition. Do we start a new career, write that book we've had rolling around in our heads for years, move to warmer climes to be near our grandchildren, continue teaching or researching or coaching other women, or do we just hang out, travel and have a good time? The guests on Older Women and Friends have many stories to tell, to share, about what they've been up to and what they've learned along the way. So turn up the volume and join me on Older Women and Friends.

Speaker 1: 1:14

Deb Krier got the call that most women over 50 dread. She barely made it home from her annual mammogram when the phone rang and her doctor told her to return for a second mammogram, which was followed by biopsies. Luckily they were all negative, so the initial diagnosis was stage zero breast cancer no big deal. Deb looked at her doc and said I'm sorry this is not on my schedule, but within short order this was no laughing matter. Cancer had spread to eight lymph nodes and a new diagnosis of stage four. Her journey was one hellish ride. Anything that could go wrong did.

Speaker 1: 2:02

Chemotherapy landed her back in the hospital in septic shock. One of the drugs in the massive chemo concoction ate a hole in her colon During a seven-week hospital stay. She distinctly remembers two doctors arguing in the hall about how she was going to die. But she didn't die. And even though she will have cancer for the rest of her life, an infusion every 21 days has kept her upbeat and optimistic. She's the founder of Wise Women Communications, an award-winning full-service public relations and marketing firm, and she has a passion project named Try Not to Die Live that's set up to empower those dealing with cancer in any way to embrace their inner warrior so that they build a tribe, energize their voices and expand their choices. Deb embraces her new lease on life with humor, optimism and connections. Deb, welcome to Older Women and Friends.

Speaker 2: 3:14

Oh my gosh, Jane, we're going to have so much fun. You know, listening to you talk, I'm like, oh, that sounds horrible.

Speaker 1: 3:22

Well, I don't think it was a lot of fun, but we'll take it. I would like to know did you enjoy good health prior to this?

Speaker 2: 3:33

Oh, somewhat. I had high blood pressure which, you know, a lot of people our age have, right, but otherwise, you know, I was a tiny bit overweight, you know, one of those where it was like I suppose I should not have that second helping of dessert, but no doctor or anybody ever got concerned. It was more. I was like I have to buy another size up of clothes, right, and it's not like I exercised all the time and ate. Well, you know, I like my fast food, I like my couch, but it was definitely a shock to find out that things were going to go downhill pretty quickly.

Speaker 1: 4:09

And do you have any cancer in your family? I do.

Speaker 2: 4:14

Now I did do genetic testing just to make sure, and it was more for my other family members than for me and there was nothing that popped there. My maternal grandmother, so my mom's mom, had initially she had breast cancer and then later on she had ovarian cancer, and my father had bladder cancer and my aunt on my mom's side also had thyroid cancer. So not, you know, not a lot of cancers, but like any family, you kind of got some here and there, Exactly so, all right, you've told me a little bit about your lifestyle.

Speaker 1: 4:48

You like the couch, you liked your fast food who doesn't? And I've given a brief outline of your bout with cancer. But can you please fill in the blanks? And actually before that, I'd like to know a little bit about your childhood. What kind of girl were you?

Speaker 2: 5:08

I was not a girly girl. I, you know I'm sure I own dresses because I'm pretty sure that you know you had to wear a dress to go to church. But I grew up in the mountains of Colorado, elevation of a little over 8,000 feet, and it was an idyllic childhood. I mean, you know my graduating class back in mumble, mumble, that long ago we had 32, 32 in my graduating class and but it was, it was wonderful. I am an only child but it really was great and it was just absolutely perfect. It was a great time to grow up.

Speaker 2: 5:46

You know, we could be out on our bikes at 10 pm and nobody really cared because it would take one or two phone calls, because this was way before cell phones right, and somebody could track us down. I mean, you know it was not all that bad. And then, you know, went to college, which was I'm at the end of the baby boomer generation, so college was okay but it still wasn't the mainstream gee, girls go to college type of thing. But I got my degree, worked, got a couple more degrees. I'm one of those silly people Met my husband and, as we are recording this, I'm not sure when it's going to be broadcast, but the day we are recording this, it is our 31st wedding anniversary Congratulations, so thank you. Thank you. No kids, but lots of dogs and cats. We moved to Atlanta in 2012 from Colorado when my husband's company said move or, and we didn't like the or option, and so we picked up and moved to Atlanta and, you know, just kept living life, so were you always a spunky person.

Speaker 2: 6:49

Oh, yes, oh yes, I was the kid that on my report card it would say would not shut up and sit down, right, um, but it was the. The nice thing was I. I don't ever remember any teacher making me feel like I should not have a voice. Now they did say there's an appropriate time and place, right, but it was never. Oh, no, no, no, you shouldn't. And so I do find that interesting because, like I said, I went to school in the 70s and you know 60s and 70s actually, and so you know, I think I had a lot of good teachers who said you know, little girls are going to be like this. But yeah, I was definitely a tomboy.

Speaker 1: 7:33

A tomboy, okay, meaning what? What did you like to do?

Speaker 2: 7:37

Oh well, my dad was. He worked for the Division of Wildlife, which had a variety of different names, so fished and I didn't hunt, that was just not something that that I wanted to do. About fishing, hiking, being, I mean, you know you live in colorado, you got to do all that stuff right. Uh, you know, playing sports kind of yeah, um, but you know, I tried kind of but yeah, just kind of those things. Like I said, not frilly dresses, I was probably the one that beheaded my dolls.

Speaker 1: 8:10

Oh dear, oh dear, Were you voted the most outgoing kid in your graduating class.

Speaker 2: 8:19

No, we didn't vote on anything like that, but I was always a class officer and things like that and usually I was are some traits they obviously carry through today.

Speaker 1: 8:47

So now I will backtrack, which is I just gave a very quick outline of your journey from the call to come back after your annual mammogram, and can you take us through with a little more detail? For example, you were called back, I am assuming, and did you tell me that there were these little, little little speckles?

Speaker 2: 9:15

So I did not have a lump, a bump, anything like that. What I had were called micro calcifications and the computer saw it. So this is something that a lot of people have never even heard of, because it is still a relatively new diagnosis. I come home, I go to Dr Google right, and discover that most women of a certain age have these. It happens in your body as our hormones change. The vast majority of the time there's absolutely no problem, because most people have them, but in some people they start coalescing and gathering, and then that's where there are issues.

Speaker 2: 9:54

Years ago I worked for the American Cancer Society and for an oncologist, so I know just enough about all this to really be dangerous, right. So, like you said, I was diagnosed stage zero, no concern, had some biopsies, those came back negative and this went on for several months because we weren't really all that concerned. And then finally my surgeon said you know, let's pull some lymph nodes, and eight of 12 were positive, and so that meant that the cancer had spread. And so then the you know things kicked into gear very quickly Got an oncologist, I decided to go with the traditional type of treatment chemotherapy, surgery, radiation and it was definitely not what we had thought it was going to be. You know, I did have that major complication. Fortunately for me, unfortunately for somebody else, but fortunately for me, my doctor had lost a patient due to that complication, and so she knew what it was, and so we were able to treat it very quickly.

Speaker 2: 10:54

The long-term issues of septic shock I will feel until the day I die. It's one of those things where it attacks your organs, and my kidneys are what were attacked. The funny thing is my heart is extremely I shouldn't say funny. The good thing is my heart is extremely I shouldn't say funny. The good thing is my heart is extremely healthy. I have an echo every six months and it has not changed in nine years. I did have surgery I had. I chose to do a double mastectomy and did not do reconstructive surgery. Part of it was I thought I'm old, I don't need those anymore. And now, if I'd been 30 years younger, yes, it would have been a very different conversation but chose to not have, recalcitrant, got a complication from that surgery that my doctor had never seen and then, you know, went along and then finally had radiation sailed through. The radiation I mean I had absolutely no ill effects from it at all, but the whole time I just kept working and living my life and doing what you do.

Speaker 1: 11:58

So when you made the decision not to have a double mastectomy and I know there's some names for some very funny what do we call those? Are those prosthetics?

Speaker 2: 12:10

So they are prosthetics, and some people wear them and some people don't. I mean, the vast majority of the time I do not have my faux boobs on, but women's clothes are tailored to fit better, especially if you're in something besides a t-shirt, right? So I have several pair. I have the expensive pair that insurance paid for, and then I have another pair and there's actually a nonprofit that I got these from and these are called knitted knockers. Love it Because they are exactly what it says. So, but me being me, they're named right. So my fancy pair are Selma and Louise, but my everyday pair are Lucy and Ethel.

Speaker 1: 12:54

Perfect, perfect. I love it, I love it. So what is your status today?

Speaker 2: 13:00

So my diagnosis is stage four, triple positive metastatic breast cancer. For breast cancers, stage four is not really considered curable, but there's been nothing that has shown up on the tests since the first chemo about killed me, and so we're just going merrily along with that. I was diagnosed last year with thyroid cancer, but it is a totally new cancer. It was not a spread of the breast cancer, it is a new cancer. And then I did have a little bit of skin cancer. So I'm going on number three. But, like with the thyroid cancer, we caught it incredibly early. We were actually looking for something else and they went oh, by the way, and because we caught it so early, I had my thyroid removed but then did not have to have any further treatment. So that was really good.

Speaker 1: 13:48

And then I mentioned in the introduction that you do go in every 21 days for some kind of infusion. Is it infusion?

Speaker 2: 13:57

Yes, it's an infusion because I'm triple positive, so I am HER2 positive and HER is an acronym and I can never remember what it is, but it means that cancer cells reproduce more quickly. And so, because I was not able to finish chemo, I get an infusion of a drug called Herceptin and I have a port in my shoulder and they just took me up for 30 minutes and put this nasty, achy stuff in me. But it keeps that, that her cell turned off and yeah, I mean we're just like I said. The thyroid cancer was an anomaly. I mean it was not part of the original and is keeping things at bay.

Speaker 1: 14:38

And will you indeed have to continue these infusions?

Speaker 2: 14:42

I will continue. So they're very hard on the body. Normally the protocol is you take them for a year because they are so hard on you. I'm on year eight and what they do is it affects your heart. That's why I have to have an echo every six months, as I said, has not phased me in the slightest, so we'll just keep going as long as my body says it's okay. I, of course, asked the question you know what? And they said well, you, you know it will be something that, especially because my heart is so healthy, it will stop the treatment when there starts to be an issue. But nobody's overly concerned about that. Um, you know, because my heart will will spring back pretty quickly. Um, and so, yeah, you just, you just keep going.

Speaker 1: 15:27

So you're such an optimist and you're very funny beginning with that. Gee, this is not in my scheduled doctor, excuse me, so I would like to know how humor has played in your journey.

Speaker 2: 15:43

You know, I have normally been. Let's make fun of things appropriately, right, and sometimes maybe inappropriately. You know, giggling at a funeral or something. But there are studies, studies after studies after studies about how humor is so beneficial to anyone who is depressed, ill, all of those various things. Your blood pressure goes down, which seems funny because, right, you're laughing, you're having a good time, but it actually brings your blood pressure down.

Speaker 2: 16:15

There are various chemicals that are released in your body when you are laughing, when you are having fun, and those chemicals are good for you. You know. And plus, you know why be gloom and doomy. You know, I do have pity parties. There's definitely times where I'm like, hey, this is not good, I'm not a happy camper, but you know how can we get through it and laugh, you know, and I also try and make especially my medical team laugh also. You know, in the infusion room they say what is your name, what is your date of birth? Now, I only do this if they know me right, because I don't want them to get all messed up, and so I tell them my name is Anastasia Beaverhausen and they have decided my infusion nurses have decided that it's Princess Anastasia Beaverhausen. So then, of course, you must do the queen wave right.

Speaker 1: 17:06

Love it, love it. So you were talking about your team, your team of doctors, and in this case, at the Infusion Center. Have you had the same team from the beginning of this journey?

Speaker 2: 17:20

Nope, my primary care doctor. I switched really pretty quickly and then I switched surgeons. She was a good doctor, we just didn't hit it off and then when I had septic shock I had to have emergency surgery and he's that surgeon saved my life. I know he saved my life Did not like him. My oncologist is I've had the same oncologist the entire time. But I think it's so important that when you're dealing with a long-term type of situation, they don't have to really like them but you have to trust them. You know, and the doctors that I switched out, they were good doctors. They just didn't click with me and some of it is. They didn't get my sense of humor and there have been a couple other doctors along the way that I'm like bye.

Speaker 1: 18:17

And I remember when we had a chat earlier a few days ago, a few weeks ago I've lost track that you said to fire anyone who is within your realm of care.

Speaker 2: 18:32

Right. Yeah, you know this is. It's so important that you have the right team around you. You know, I tell people I'm not a patient. You call me a patient. I make faces, I am a warrior. You know I am in the fight for my life. But warriors are never alone. They always have their tribe, and so it is so important to make sure that we have the right tribe of people around us, and sometimes that means changing friends. Sometimes it does mean changing medical care providers, things like that, but it's about building the team around you who are going to help you.

Speaker 1: 19:13

The most the team around you who are going to help you the most. So you mentioned friends and I'm wondering if all of the people whom you assumed were going to be there for you were there a few that did not or could not there?

Speaker 2: 19:28

were, and it was very surprising. There were a couple that just absolutely could not deal with it, not at all. I mean, they didn't want updates, they didn't. And I thought, well, I guess our friendship was done. And it did surprise me. I mean, some of them were friends from 20 years ago or more and I don't know if it was because it made them think about their own mortality. Some people just don't like hearing about illness, things like that. But I also had people come into the tribe that have been fabulous supporters that I didn't even know, knew I existed before any of this happened, and so that's kind of the ebb and flow of what happens, importance of not being alone, and that makes me think about your suggestion for when you have a doctor's appointment, and I think it's important and that's worth sharing.

Speaker 2: 20:24

When you hear you have cancer or any other serious type of diagnosis, your brain shuts off. I mean it just. You can't process things. And so one of the things I tell people and I've done this with people is when the first appointment or two where you're going in and they are just dumping all of this information on you, you have X percent to live. You have all this stuff. Take somebody with you, a loved one, friend, whoever. Like I mentioned, I've gone a couple of times with people because they didn't have anybody and let them know before you go in. Here are the things that I want answered, because you're not going to remember the questions. They're probably going to have their own questions and so you're going to kind of rely on them to be that level-headed person. So it is important to pick who you take, that you know they're not going to get all panicky or weepy or sick, you know things like that. But yeah, pick somebody who is going to go in and really be a good support system for you.

Speaker 1: 21:25

And what about taking notes or actually recording?

Speaker 2: 21:30

Definitely. You know, I remember years ago now I worked for the American Cancer Society. It's been probably about 35 years ago, you know, so long before cell phones, Right. But we told people take a recorder, and you know so this would have been a cassette recorder, Right. And we said record it because again you're not going to remember and we have the flu, we go home and we go when was I supposed to take that medicine? Right. And when you're being told truly, life and death things, your brain does not remember. And if you ever have a doctor that says, oh, no, you can't record this, there's a problem. And I've had doctors who have said, oh, it's a HIPAA violation. And they're like, no, no, no, no, it's a HIPAA violation if I record somebody else's appointment. It is not a HIPAA violation to record my own, and they should want you to have that clarity.

Speaker 1: 22:23

And tell me, did you also join breast cancer support groups? And if you did, why Was it beneficial? And if not, why not? You know, I didn't.

Speaker 2: 22:35

I know they're incredibly beneficial for many people. I just I found that I had the support that I needed around me. Without that and sometimes support groups can get a little weepy and a little maudlin and I figured that I would probably say something inappropriate. I had the opportunities. There were certainly lots of groups I could have gone to and again, I know there are some people that they get so much out of those and so that's perfectly fine for them. It just wasn't for me.

Speaker 1: 23:05

And about telling people. I know that often people who get a diagnosis of cancer don't want to share that information. I don't know. Again, as you said, there were friends and perhaps they were thinking of their own mortality or whatever, but it sounds like the decision you made was to be very public.

Speaker 2: 23:29

It was but I'll tell you the one that I worried about, or you know from, from the perspective of was. So I'm a consultant. I worried about telling the companies that I worked for because they would think I can't do the job. They, you know, they wanted me to focus on treatment. You know all of those various things and, of course, I discovered the opposite. I discovered that the people that I work for are the most wonderful people in the world and have repeatedly said what do you need from us?

Speaker 2: 24:00

That's actually how I got one of my very first COVID shot was I couldn't get it in my doctor's office. I don't know why, they were just running short, but I do consulting for senior living communities and they had a COVID clinic, a COVID shot clinic, and that's where I went and got my COVID shot. My oncologist was just stunned because they couldn't get them for patients, but I had my shots and so, yeah, I mean it was just and that's part of it too If you were truly afraid that you were going to lose your job or something like that, that's a different conversation. You might need to keep working, you might need the money, the insurance, you know all those various things, but is that really a place that you want to be long term and you mentioned people from several of the companies for whom you worked and how supportive they were.

Speaker 1: 24:53

So I think we ought to switch and talk just quickly about what you do professionally.

Speaker 2: 24:58

So my company is called Wise Women Communications and we are a full service marketing agency. We focus on providing social media as a marketing tool. This is kind of, you know, I tell people find your niche and then in that niche we work with the senior living communities. They do tend to be the higher end, so you're not so much a nursing facility as more of an independent living type of community. And so we, you know, we post every day. I tell them the goal is that we post every day. So they're continually texting me pictures throughout the day, because there are 15 communities that we work with and I edit the pictures and post them. And of course, our goal with that is to show that the residents are happy, healthy and active. And that's for the people like me who you know mom, grandma, dad, whoever are there and I want to see that they're happy healthy and active.

Speaker 1: 25:55

And then you have, as I mentioned in the introduction, and you call it a passion project, and some people may get a little freaked out, but it is trying not to die. And then there's a period, and then there's the word live, in all caps, most definitely.

Speaker 2: 26:19

So what's going on with that? So what we did was we started this initiative to help those who have cancer or are on a journey with it, so they might be someone who is supporting someone. And the trying not to die part is because, when we have something like this that we're dealing with, we sometimes get so focused on trying to not die that we forget that what we really need to be thinking about is how are we going to live? And so that is the website trying not to die dot live, but live is because it's all caps, it is an acronym. I try not to die dot live, but live is because it's all caps, it is an acronym. And so it's about leading your tribe, invigorating your soul, voicing your feelings and being honest about it and elevating your mindset. You know to know that, no matter what, you're going to be OK, and it might be that it's, you know, short term, but you will have lived the way you wanted to live?

Speaker 1: 27:19

And if women go on to that site, what are they going to find?

Speaker 2: 27:25

We have a lot of resources there and continually adding them. There is a link to the Knitted Knockers, of course, and several other things I tend to tell people focus on. You know, like we said, you Google it and you get overwhelmed. Mayo Clinic and the American Cancer Society to me are some of the biggest resources. Then, of course, you know, there are obviously the specialties. There's the Leukemia Society, things like that and so we've got those A blog. You know. We have a blog post that we put in there, and then we also have the information on joining our Facebook group.

Speaker 2: 28:00

We do have a private Facebook group and we only keep it private just so that we can control who is there. You want it to be somebody who is not trying to sell us the cure of the day, and unfortunately, you discover that that happens when something like this happens. But it's a great group. It's very inspirational. I tell people this is not the place where we're going to go boo-hoo, boo-hoo. Now, if somebody is needing emotional support, we're there for that also. But yeah, so tryingnottodielive is just a great resource for people.

Speaker 1: 28:32

Well, I'm assuming that listeners are going to be buoyed by your enthusiasm and upbeat manner, and I guess all I can say is keep those knitted knockers up. I know.

Speaker 2: 28:49

I know, you know, keep those girls going. You got it.

Speaker 1: 28:54

I thank you so much for sharing your story. Thank you, and I'm sure that listeners will be excited to share it as well. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining me on this episode of Older Women and Friends and speaking of friends me on this episode of Older Women and Friends and speaking of friends. Please tell yours about this podcast and if you have any suggestions for future episodes or guests or anything else you'd like to share, go to speakpipecom. That's S-P-E-A-K-P-I-P-Ecom. Forward slash. Older women and friends. You can send me an audio message or respond to one of mine, because it is your feedback that drives this podcast. Until next time,